Shop Work vs DIYer Work

kwm · 02-01-2006, 05:42 AM

In a search for a good used car has anyone come across cars with high levels of privateer or restoration by the owners as opposed to a shop? I am looking at a car that has extensive restoration done but 90+% of it was all by the owner. Actually everything minus the head resurface, valve grind, headliner, and seats where all done by the owner. Obviously I can't check the owner's reputation b/c I have only him to inquire and he is of course biased. If it were a shop I could check up on their other work. Also I have no real receipt trail to review. Looking at the car it is very obvious it was restored to very high standards with a high level of detail. However, once again all by the owner thought. How much would this concern you? The owner's only qualifications are that he has restored many cars over the years but only for himself. The guy does have a good photo record of the restore. He has pics of the car in various stages of the restore.

dickster · 02-01-2006, 05:45 AM

Personally i would be wary of buying a resto where most of the work was done privately.

Bodywork/painting is a very skilled job and i would scrutinise this very carefully.

still, if the car is as good as you say, i would never say never.

just check it out properly.

RallyJon · 02-01-2006, 05:54 AM

Quote:

Bodywork/painting is a very skilled job and i would scrutinise this very carefully.

See if you can surreptitiously glance around his workshop for rolls of chickenwire.

Kroggers · Kroggers's Garage

I find this very interesting. This BB promotes the owner to undertake the work themselves and rewards us for not having a "check book" restoration attitude, but as soon as we are looking at a new car we get suspicious about someone who has done the restoration as a DIY project. Whilst I have no plans to ever part with my SC, should I assume that I would always get a better deal if I have all the restoration work done by a professional??

kwm, I would say have a close look at the car (the same as you would with any other car) and get a good PPI done. Look at the pictures he has and review it against the finished project to see if there are any visible signs of a bad job. From my experience, I have found that a shop is just as likely to do a bad job, and any competent DIYer with passion for his project will give 110% commitment to the job.

dickster · 02-01-2006, 06:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RallyJon
See if you can surreptitiously glance around his workshop for rolls of chickenwire.

LOL, its usually that obvious!

dickster · 02-01-2006, 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kroggers
I find this very interesting. This BB promotes the owner to undertake the work themselves and rewards us for not having a "check book" restoration attitude, but as soon as we are looking at a new car we get suspicious about someone who has done the restoration as a DIY project. Whilst I have no plans to ever part with my SC, should I assume that I would always get a better deal if I have all the restoration work done by a professional??

kwm, I would say have a close look at the car (the same as you would with any other car) and get a good PPI done. Look at the pictures he has and review it against the finished project to see if there are any visible signs of a bad job. From my experience, I have found that a shop is just as likely to do a bad job, and any competent DIYer with passion for his project will give 110% commitment to the job.

I agree with you. But you should be up to the job. I would tackle any mechanical job at all, however, I cannot do bodywork and would leave that to the pro's.

Some people "have a go" at anything! Well, thats fine on their cars but don't expect me to part with $$ for it later if its done to a poor standard.

RallyJon · 02-01-2006, 06:23 AM

As a DIYer with a passion, etc, etc, I make sure that the job gets done to a high standard eventually. The difference is that is sometimes takes me a couple of tries--first to learn, then to go back and do it right--where a shop has the experience to do it right the first time. I know my limitations, but I also have the commitment to keep doing something (if necessary) until it's done to a standard that I could present to a potential buyer with confidence.

That's a bit different from the type of hack job where the DIYer has no money, cuts corners, and leaves things "good enough".

yelcab1 · 02-01-2006, 07:53 AM

I trust myself more than any other mechanic on earth. I have seen way too many professional cut corners, cheat customers, do it wrong, break something while fixing something else and then ignore it, or just flat out bastardize the job.

If I screw up, at least I know it is my fault and I can re-do it right. Saving money is just a secondary objective. I have not seen a mechanic for any of my cars in over 15 years.

fuelie600 · 02-01-2006, 08:06 AM

I would also look at the owners work over time. Did he document multiple milestones with dates and mileage? Can you see that his work held up aver several years and several thousand miles? If all the work was done at once and the owner doesn't have any mileage on his work, maybe he doesn't trust his own work???

Dantilla · 02-01-2006, 08:12 AM

Was the seller building the car for himself? Or is this a quick flip job?

I would have no problem buying a car worked on by the owner. Take a close look, keep your eyes wide open, and if the quality is there, buy it.

Just remember that you are still buying a used car. Don't expect perfection no matter where you buy it.

Tim Hancock · 02-01-2006, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by yelcab1
I trust myself more than any other mechanic on earth. I have seen way too many professional cut corners, cheat customers, do it wrong, break something while fixing something else and then ignore it, or just flat out bastardize the job.

If I screw up, at least I know it is my fault and I can re-do it right. Saving money is just a secondary objective. I have not seen a mechanic for any of my cars in over 15 years.

DITTO!!!!

While a few shops are staffed by pro's (as evidenced by a few of the shop owners who post here), many nowadays are filled with cheap young labor who have little experience wrenching on cars (they may be able to whip me at Playstation, but many just did not grow up working on motorized vehicles like many people my age did). The talent pool available to repair shops is not what it used to be. Other than some engine part machine work and tire mount/balance (as soon as I find a good deal on an electronic balancer I will jump on it), I do ALL my own work. I admit to taking a couple cars in for code reading and before I got my own vacuum pump and gages, I paid for AC service.

Allthough I do make a little part-time money with my IA rating, the main reason for me getting this aircraft mechanic rating was to allow ME to legally work on the airplane that my family and I fly around in as opposed to someone else who I may not necessarily trust with my life.

anthony · 02-01-2006, 09:19 AM

To me this would depend on whether I was paying nice driver prices or concours, near mint, 100 point restoration prices. If the asking price is top dollar and there is no documentation then maybe pass.

But if the work looks good then have a professional or professionals evaulate the work. Most people don't do it but you can get a second PPI on the body restoration from an experienced body shop.

kwm · 02-01-2006, 09:29 AM

A little more background would be that the man built the car to stay w/i his family. It was purchased from him by his son in law. The son in law moved on to a different car and there is now no one in the family left to purchase it, at least that is his story. Anyway, I do agree with the 110% perfection when it is your car, homes, boat, etc..... Any home painting or other labor intensive work I have done that requires no true skill just harwork, patient, and attention to detail I promise my work was better than someone doing it just for the $$. For instance I hired a guy to hang crown molding at my house and it was a typical suck ass fast food approach to the job so I tore it all down and did it myself and caulked up and painted over any gap or visual imperfections bc/ it was my house for Christ sakes. So I do also generally agree with the concept of the DIY guy does it better. However, is he skilled enough is probably the true question here. And right along with that is does he have the correct tools which is half the work of any job.

DW SD · 02-01-2006, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kwm
[B] Anyway, I do agree with the 110% perfection when it is your car, homes, boat, etc..... B]

sometimes it takes a skilled craftsman to recognize shoddy work. Othertimes it is immediately obvious. Sounds like you have an eye for detail. Trust your eye, verify through PPI. (didn't mean to sound corny with rhyme.)

Doug

dickster · 02-01-2006, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kwm
So I do also generally agree with the concept of the DIY guy does it better.

mmm, thats taking it a little far.

LOL

I'll do what i do best and let someone else do what they do best.

jmho.

wholberg · wholberg's Garage

Quote:

Originally posted by yelcab1
I trust myself more than any other mechanic on earth. I have seen way too many professional cut corners, cheat customers, do it wrong, break something while fixing something else and then ignore it, or just flat out bastardize the job.

If I screw up, at least I know it is my fault and I can re-do it right. Saving money is just a secondary objective. I have not seen a mechanic for any of my cars in over 15 years.

My opinion exactly. I have had to undo crap work by PO's, or redo crap work by "professional" mechanics. I trust the quality of work I do more than that done by someone I don't know.

As for the car that has been restored, have someone very knowledable, if you are not, come and look at the car. If a lot of work was done by the PO, a thorough inspection of the visible work should give a good idea of whether or not it was done well. Look at the seams and edges of the interior and see what the attention to detail was. If you take off the sill plate, is the carpet glued down perfectly like a factory installation. Does the wiring under the dash look crappy, or is it neat and orderly.

I might be inclined to buy a car like this, but only after talking to the PO, and then spending 2 to 3 hours taking stuff apart to check the quality of the work.

Argeo · 02-01-2006, 01:28 PM

What's wrong with chicken wire?

I love the stuff. Light, cheap and keep hands and leaves out.

Cosmetically, I personally would rather save $5K-$10K and have a car that is almost as nice. Cars going to get banged up driving anyways.

David

naparsei · 02-01-2006, 02:15 PM

Best answer was already suggested, IMO. Two PPIs - one at a mechanics shop you trust, one at the body shop. If you do the mechanical PPI first, stay with the mechanic the whole time, and make the car gets up on a lift. Any experienced P-car mechanic will have an idea if the car's been hit or not. If she's pretty straight, then you really just need to worry about rust repair (body wise), depending on how far the PO went.

Would you buy the car @ auction, knowing nothing? If so, why worry about who did the work. Knowing what was done by the guy would be nice, though. If he replaced the bushings, that's one thing. If he used an English wheel to rebuild the rear fenders, that's another (of course, if he's actually got an English wheel, he probably knows how to use it)...