Spare Motor Storage...What to do

[wowzer911]

I have a descent running spare motor (long block). I have drained the oil, and sprayed cylinders with WD-40. It is inside, but not in a climate controlled area. What needs to be done to keep this engine ready in the event I need to use it down the (hopefully long) road? Should I keep oil in it? Respray cylinders and roll it over periodically? Any advise would be appreciated.

[HawgRyder]

There are gimmicks you put into the spark plug holes (replace spark plugs) that contain silica (drying agent).
Clean it, oil it, roll it over (without plugs) while oiling cynilders, put in the dryers, cover the whole engine and stand as tightly as you can (to keep out the critters).
In some cases, if it's going to be a very long storage, I would remove the rocker arms to relieve the valve springs and make sure all are closed (used to do this for race engines).
Bob

[wowzer911]

Thanks Bob, I'll look for those silica thingy's, and I think releasing pressure on the valve springs is a good idea. But what about the crank and other internals, what can I do to help stop rust from forming internally? Should I add oil, kerosene, or something else internally?

[Steveinatlanta]

One of the other threads has an idea for you:

[wowzer911]

LOL, I do have some 1/2" plate glass in the basement, but I don't think it would balance as well on the CIS as it does on those carbs. I don't think the wife would go for it anyway.

[wowzer911]

WTB - Weber 40IDA carbs for Coffee Table.

[Steveinatlanta]

My wife actually wants to do this in our basement.

She has no idea of the costs involved, but I can't stop thinking of how cheaply I could do it. Those Webers in any shape would be expensive!

[wowzer911]

Saturday Morning crowd BUMP....still looking for advice

[Grady Clay]

“Winter Storage Checklist”


“Rust vs. Humidity vs. Storage”


“What do you do about winterization?”

Best,
Grady

[charlesbahn]

"Here's an engine storage procedure from Klaus Fischer at Amalfi Racing. He and his friends at the Porsche Museum in Germany use this for their historic Porsche race cars:

* Take out spark plugs
* Spray WD 40 into cylinders
* Spray WD 40 into air intakes
* Turn over the engine by hand with wrench a couple of times
* Every three months repeat above (Spark plugs stay out of engine)
* Also every three month turn wheels, or move car into different location to change the wheel bearing position
* As well shift into one gear and move gear box internal around
* Every six month drive the car!"

EDIT: This is from:
http://www.porschenet.com/winter.html

[Evans, Marv]

Wowzer,
All good info above. I have a suggestion about spraying something into the cylinders. WD-40 is mostly a water displacer. I would prefer to spray fogging oil into the cylinders.

[wowzer911]

Yes, good info, but I'm not just storing for the winter, but a few years. I can periodically dose cylinders, etc.. But my main question extends beyond the cylinders. How do I keep the crank, mainshaft, bearings, etc. protected? Maybe store it on an engine stand with sufficient oil/lube and rotate it periodically? Is there a better way?

[len911]

I pondered upon this myself while assembling an engine that was going to be in storage until the right shell showed up. I ended up using engine assembly lube in all the running surfaces. Also used engine lube to coat the valve sealing surfaces since they tend to oxidize. Also lubed all cam lobes. Most of the other parts will not rust... I guess you could also coat non-running surfaces of crank with light oil covering, even vaseline would work. Just make sure you do not get any on the case sealing surfaces...

I rotated my engine every month or so after removing the plugs. Make sure to cover intakes and exhaust to keep contaminants and critters out. I had a long block with no fan assembly. Completed final assembly shortly before engine install. Currently doing a 2.7 and have a spare Euro 3.0l in the pipeline that will be mothballed until future use. Will probably treat in the same way... Lou

[Grady Clay]

I feel there is a practical shelf-life limit to an already run engine. Generally speaking I would want to completely disassemble and do a “maintenance rebuild” after some period of time. Of course that time is very dependent on how the engine was stored, its condition prior to storage and the efforts toward preservation during storage.

When a used engine is stored and then put back into service years later it is the worst possible conditions. A freshly rebuilt engine will have assembly lube (grease) everywhere and is less susceptible to damage on start-up. Even a fresh engine doesn’t have an infinite shelf life.

The new 908 and 917 engines that Wayne helped recover should be disassembled and inspected prior to running IMHO. They were assembled more than 10 years ago and stored in unknown environmental conditions.


OK, on to your project. I assume the engine is another ‘74S. Is it absolutely complete where you can install it in your 911 now and have it work? If so, it would be advisable to swap engines mid-summer each year.

Now the issue is only how to have each properly survive 12 months storage – much easier.

The four areas of concern are:
1) Preparation prior to storage, while the engine is still in service.
2) Storage environmental conditions.
3) Pro-active things you can do while in storage.
4) Procedures for putting the engine back in service.

Shortcomings in any one of these areas can change the engine from being ready to be put in service to a rebuildable core or worse.

Even though 3) is the focus of your question, I’ll start with 1)

1) Preparation prior to storage, while the engine is still in service.
The starting point should be a good running engine with all the service done. This is particularly true of valve adjustment, cranking compression test and cylinder leak test after a DE or extended trip.

Now is the time for some serious high performance driving.

Before you put the engine to bed you want the fuel system adjusted, and everything working properly. The time to fix things is before you put it to bed. That isn’t to say you won’t have work to do after you put it back in service but you aren’t simultaneously fighting storage issues and a pre-existing problem.

Do all the cleaning, service, etc. first. Some nice morning do some very “spirited” driving and park the engine hot. Take off the oil cap, valve covers, sump plate (if you have one), etc. so the engine vents the combustion moisture.

Don’t put the horse away wet. Don’t start the engine again - period.

Drain the oil and pull the engine.



2) Storage environmental conditions.

Much of this is addressed in the links above. The thing to remember is every time the atmospheric pressure changes (usually about a 3-day cycle) the engine “breathes.” This causes an air-exchange with the environment.

A daily warm day to cold night also causes the engine to “breathe.” Even more important is if the engine is cold and breathes in warm humid air, condensation can occur. Bad things happen. Even furnace and A/C cycling can be a problem.

The daily temperature swing needs to be reduces to minimum.

The atmosphere needs to be low oxygen and low humidity. This can be done with a plastic bag container full of N2 gas and an appropriate chemical that absorbs moisture.

The advantage of a plastic bag container is it expands and contracts with the atmospheric pressure. With no differential pressure the leaks across the plastic bag container are minimized.

Adverse environmental conditions can kill a 911 engine in storage.


3) Pro-active things you can do while in storage.
wowzer911 your original question seems to be about this, let’s address that now.

The preservative of choice is Marvel Mystery Oil (MMO). It has long been used successfully for this purpose.

Initially you need to crank the engine with the sparkplugs out and MMO in the intakes and via the sparkplug holes.

I would store the engine with 2-3 liters MMO in the crankcase. This won’t be enough to have oil leak past the rings and into the cylinders. Prior to periodically turning the engine by hand, you can tip the engine 90° and completely fill the cam housings with oil. This will get fresh lubricant on all the parts there. After you have tipped it a couple of times, rotate the engine while in each 90° position to get the MMO everywhere.

At each engine turning, I would remove the sparkplugs to prevent any possible damage from hydraulic lock and relieve the stress on bearings, wrist pins, etc. Always turn the engine clockwise.

I would invent a small oil sump tank that connects to the two oil connections and has ball valves in each. When turning the engine by hand this will circulate oil past the bearings and to the cams. If you make the tank high enough above the engine, all the oil will drain back into the crankcase for the next time. Fuel line hoses will work just fine.

The CIS is even more sensitive to storage. I would invent a small “fuel” tank and CIS pump/filter arrangement with MMO in place of gasoline. At each engine turning, pump oil around the circuit and raise the sensor plate to operate the nozzles. You want the fuel system full of preservative oil and not gasoline or air. You could even wire it to operate the cold start nozzle and WUR. The cold start valve should be removed from the air box to do this so you don’t get oil in the air box.

I would not leave an engine hanging on an engine stand for a long period (certainly not a mag case). It should be sitting on the heat exchangers & case or supported as if it were in a 911.

If your engine has a catalytic converter (California conversion?) you should remove it and store separately. I recommend you install some aftermarket el-chepo muffler for storage and start-up. On start-up you don’t want to dump a lot of MMO in your good muffler.

I would douse your distributor internals with MMO. Don’t worry about the points, all that needs cleaning and servicing prior to the engine being run again.

Remove the fan belt and let it sit in a “relaxed” position.

Remove the clutch pressure palate, disc, and TO bearing and use it on the other engine.

Even in the best household or industrial environmental conditions, oxygen and moisture is the enemy. You can buy a giant “Zip-Lock” to store the engine in. You can fill it with dry nitrogen gas. A gallon or few cans of silica jell will absorb any residual moisture. You can put the silica jell in your oven at each turning to remove the accumulated moisture.

Of course you could always store the engine in an environmental chamber where you pull a vacuum and then store with pressurized inert Argon gas and ±0.1F, HeHe.

No matter what you do, some gaskets and seals will fail.

continued

[Grady Clay]

continuing

4) Procedures for putting the engine back in service.

This is the most critical operation. These are far more severe conditions than an initial start-up of a fresh engine.

Do your last turning of the engine and preservation running the fuel system before anything else. Having the valve train and bearings fully lubricated is very important

The two critical issues are to do all the service first so the engine will fire and run properly on the first attempt. Next is to treat it VERY carefully as all the parts attempt to get friendly with each other again. During this process the engine will likely generate more heat from friction. You don’t want to overheat anything so low revs, cool conditions and short drives are critical. The temperature of the rings or cam-to-rocker interface won’t be indicated by oil temperature.

You are going to need to purge the fuel system of MMO. This is best done with your little fuel tank and repeatedly changing to fresh fuel. Use the MMO/gas in your lawn tractor or a little at a time in a non-cat car. You can purge the lines & nozzles into a container by lifting the sensor plate. Make sure you purge the cold start and cause all the fuel circuits to function with fresh gas. The purges might include some fuel cleaning additive. This is an opportunity to replace the O-rings at the nozzles – a regular maintenance item.

Once the fuel system is clean, it will need some running before you attempt any adjustment. It needs to brake-in just like the rings, valves and other. The engine will need fresh premium fuel. The fact that the ring seal isn’t perfect during brake-in means the mixture is contaminated with more oil than normal. The oil reduces the octane rating and increases the propensity for detonation just when it can be most destructive.

Set the engine at TDC compression on #1 cylinder and remove the distributor for cleaning, new points and bench run-in. Make sure the points are absolutely clean. This is a good opportunity to check and record the advance curve.

Take each electrical connector and disconnect-reconnect several times. Connectors use a wiping function to make good electrical contact. With the engine is in service, the vibration helps maintain good electrical connection. Don’t stress the wires at the connection.

Chain tensioners are an “Achilles Heal” for the 911 engine. This is particularly true when left to sit (yes, even Carrera). I recommend rebuilding them each time with the simple seal kit. This also lets you inspect the chain and sprockets. Cost: two seal kits and two chain cover gaskets & hardware.

4A - Preparing the engine to start.
After doing your last rotation, purging the systems, etc. you need to spin the engine on the starter with the spark plugs out and the fuel and ignition systems disabled. This will tend to purge the oil in the combustion chambers and get full oil pressure.

Before you reinstall the nozzles and the cold start nozzle, make sure they spray correctly into a container. Now there should be fresh, high octane fuel – be careful. Check for fuel leaks, a fire will destroy the best preserved engine.

With your distributor service, your static ignition timing should be very close to spec.

You should install new BP5ES spark plugs and have spare sets available.

4B - Starting the engine:

The goal is to have the engine start and run at low RPM on the first attempt. With the “hot” plugs you want the engine to start and run smoothly. If it wants to foul a plug at this stage, simply replace all the plugs. You and clean and re-use them later. Don’t use this hot a sparkplug on the highway or for full throttle runs.

The engine will put some quantity of MMO into the junk muffler and cause exhaust smoke.


4C - Running the engine:

Keep the RPM low and only run it for a few minutes at a time. After 3-4 cycles drive it very short distances at low RPM but with substantial throttle. Progressively increase the distance and revs. By 100 miles or so it should be back to normal.

This is not the time to do any service or adjusting unless absolutely necessary.


4D - To close the loop:

After brake-in, drive it and enjoy!

911s like to be driven; they don’t take kindly to be left in the barn. Every time you drive a 911, get it fully to operating temperature. The best performing 911s are driven “in a sporting manner” daily – or at least weekly.

It is unreasonable to expect a museum 911 (garage queen) to perform properly without some serious effort. Even then, it won’t perform as well as one driven regularly.

You are going to find leaks and problems from the storage. Expect that and deal with it promptly.

Change the oil in the 911 several times in rapid succession, particularly if you have a front cooler. You want to put the stored engine in service with the cleanest oil possible. This also gives the engine coming out all clean oil.

Best,
Grady

[randywebb]

As usual, a very comprehensive and thought-thru post from Grady.

We are talking about Looong-term storage here - not just a winter or seasonal storage...

To simplify on aspect of the above: you can think of a run engine as dirty -- combustion has happened and the inside is full of curd with acid in it (acid is formed inside the cylinder from the combustion porcesses there).

OTOH, a run in engine will have nearly all the metal particles out of it, while a newly assembled one will be shedding a lot of metal as it is 'broken-in.'

re #2 - It is important to avoid a condensing atmosphere - Grady gives some ways to do that. Just warming the storgae space will help a lot. You can determine how much by calculating the humidities and dew points. The dew point is the temperature at shich condensation happens (dew is condensate from the ambient air)...

One could also rig up a small electric motor and timer to turn the stored engine over periodically even when not there. similarly, an oil pumping device could be run on electricity, tho I'd rather see the moving parts of the engine rotate.

One might also check with auto museums for what they do and add to this thread.

[Grady Clay]

I had a nice discussion with Bill Spoerle, head if the Restoration Department for the Indianapolis Motor Speedway Museum. He is of German decent, naturally.

Without my prompting, he listed all the things we have been discussing here. He put strong emphasis on the environment being constant temperature and low humidity. They turn the engines by hand on a regular schedule. Daily they check/set tire pressures and move the cars.

They never fire them up unless they are going to get them up to temperature on track.

They drain all the fuel and purge with nitrogen. He is interested in using MMO in the more modern fuel systems as better protection. He reminded me of the importance of preservatives in the coolant systems and even windshield washers. An often forgotten issue is to lube and turn by hand the turbos. (Easy on an Indy Car where you can see the inlet compressor vanes.)

I’ll keep up the dialog.

Best,
Grady

[wowzer911]

Wow....lots to think about. Thanks for all the great information! I think I can put alot of it to good use.

[onephat356]

Any general aviation supply shop should sell the screw in desicant tubes. Take a spark plug with you to see if they have the small size.
The desicant DOES work

[LM3929]

The Eastwood company sells the desicant in 14mm screw-in units. You might have to ask them as it is not always shown on thier WEB site or printed cataloge and any of the major parts supplier sell an engine fogging oil that will work.