Value of doing a PPI
 

Just a quick personal story. Recently I was about to purchase a 911 located in a large southern state. As the owner has threatened legal action if I damage his/her reputation, I cannot disclose the car or the owner, so please do not ask. Take this as cautionary tale.

Based upon conversation with the owner, it appeared everything was excellent, relatively low mileage, cared for, etc. Price was a little high, but based upon the condition, it was worth the money 25k range, so not a "beater". Plus there was only positive feedback on the owner. Nice person as well & he/she said they've been driving the car for 3 months & it had a clean carfax. On my wife's insistence, I hired an auto inspection firm (autoexam.com) to see the vehicle and do a PPI for me as I was not local to the area.

Was I glad! The inspector found the car had been poorly repainted (not disclosed) from what he believed was rose/pink to black, cut wires were hanging under the seats, modules were hanging out under the dash, overspray was evident on the wires, new carpet was hiding corrosion on inside linkages, multiple warning lamps stayed on as he test drove it, rear wiper didn't work, there were oil leaks on the undercarriage, an undercarriage shield was held on with bungie cord, & so on.

Oh, and this is the best part, the carfax indicated that the car came from an area in Louisiana which had been clearly identified as a flood area & had only been in the owner's hands since February 06. None of this was disclosed by the owner... even when he/she were specifically asked where the car came from. When asked earlier, the answer given was "from the south" & he/she indicated they had driven it for 3 months without issue.

When confronted, the owner said that my inspector was mistaken. Possibly, but would you chance it?

Best $169 I've ever spent.

Oh, car is now back on the market... with the exact same description. Maybe the owner was right/ maybe the PPI inspector was wrong...

Just a warning... get any car inspected prior to purchase.

Does this guy or gal really have any grounds on any legal action? I am just curious because it looks like they got something to hide to me from what you wrote. If this happened to me I would tell everyone I knew that was looking for a 911 about this car and seller. I would hate to see anyone I know stuck with this potential pos. I guess this is a good example of why everyone on this board stresses getting a PPI so much.

I am not a legal expert, but in my humble opionion, He/She has no legal grounds whatsoever. I would love to have some of the lawyers on the forum give us their opinion on this.

"The Truth is the Truth."

That being said, there is nothing to stop someone from filing a frivolous lawsuit . Anyone can claim damages. If that is done, you then have to defend yourself, which will cause a loss of time and aggravation for the defendent.

The best one can do is try to avoid those sellers, we all know who they are, & to have a PPI done.

I have found that one way of determining a potential problem is when someone sells on a major auction site often, has multiple cars listed at the same time, and has done so for many years... but has a relatively low number of ratings. They will probably all be positive as this type of character will routinely threaten lawsuits when people complain or end auctions prematurely to avoid registered comments. Now, this doesn't apply in all cases, but, IMHO, looks to be the case in specific instances.

That said, I have bought multiple vehicles on line over the past several years, many without PPI, and this is the first instance of a possibly dishonest seller that I have run into. The amazing thing was the total lack of remorse, or, at the very least, an offer to substitute a similiar car for the poorly represented one... which, after another PPI, I probably would have readily accepted!

I feel the same way, but I really don't want to fight with a "junk yard dog". I'm just a nice guy & life is to short to hassle with it... but I though that at least a cautionary tale would help others.

Always.... always....always get a PPI.

The pictures were very convincing on the website.

Glad it worked out for you.

"You can only claim Victory when you have your Motorcars inspected properly, especially in hurricane states like louisiana or certain parts Of Texas."

AFJ
(foot-stomp, cough, foot-stomp)

I hear you. I just know with the quick decision making I can make sometimes that if someone was trying to scam me I would react to fast (what I stated above) without thinking it through. Would be a pain to go to court over something stupid like this.

I get it.

Hahaha. Good one . . .

Ian

I wonder what your autoexam.com contract says about disclosing infomation to 3rd parties, and worry about that before I'd worry about the owner rights.

Your only contract is with autoexam.com as you did not buy the car.

I am not a lawyer, just thinking out loud.

since no specific vehicle was mentioned, I see no foul here. It would be different if a specific VIN was stated, or a particular individual. autoexam.com probably appreciated the vote of confidence. Plus customer testimonials are often shown on web-sites.

Just spoke with Autoexam.com, they have no problem with this type of disclosure. Again, no foul here.

I bought a car this summer from a well respected pelican who decided not to disclose that the car had been hit from behind, and advertised it as rust free. The worst part is that the sellers profession is bodywork. Since finding excessive bondo work and indisputable evidence of a collision the seller has not responded to 3 emails over at least 2 months. The value of getting a PPI is priceless. I did not get a PPI because I thought someone would be honest, but I guess even good people do bad things sometimes. Please, don't end up in my shoes get a PPI, even if you are buying from your grandmother. It is worth the price just to know what is wrong with the car you are buying.

I agree, every collector car I've ever sold has had a PPI done.. in the one case where an issue was found, which I was not aware of, I corrected the item for the new owner, and after 4 years they are still happy with it! I guess the difference is that we do this as a hobby & not as a profession, so to us it's about the cars and to others it just about the money.

As an aside, keep an eye out for eBayer's who have an excessive number of bid retractions. This may be a sign that they are avoiding the potential for negative comments by removing the item prior to final sale on eBay.. or as a way to avoid paying eBay its fair share of the final sale price. Either way it could demonstrate the degree of unethical behavior of your seller.

He has no grounds for legal action. What's he going to say to the court - "this guy harmed my reputation by exposing my fraud"?

Even if he did sue you, all the details about this car and his presentation of it would be brought to light and made public. Obviously he won't do that. He's just trying to intimidate you.

What color and year was this car in question?

I do not think you would be doing anyhting wrong disclosing this.

Will they let you post something writting - the actual report? I assume they use a standard scorecard of somekind. That's what I meant to say/ask - sorry.

I didn't ask them that.

My guess is that that would be a theft of service. If a client did that, no one else would need to contract with autoexam.com and would receive the same information. It would be the same as sharing a CD or DVD with friends and making copies. Not ethical.

The info I did share was general enough to be a cautionary tale without necessarily negating the future use of their services in the future on the same vehicle.

Get a PPI, avoid any car sold by questionable sellers and understand that you get what you pay for. If this car was 10k, it probably would have been a good deal even with a bad PPI, but for fmv of $25-$27k it was not worth it. By the way, I didn't even dicker about the price. The question of truthfulness of the seller is a whole other issue.

I'm a little slow this AM, but I get it, too! HAHAHA! Wink...Wink...Knod...Knod!

Definitly agree, PPI is a must, a few years back I was about to buy a bueatiful 73 914 2.0, red on black, totally restored, new paint, new interior, new dash, engine re-build, tranny re-build-the car was perfect!

The guy was super nice, and I am sure was not trying to scam me but the PPI revealed the following,

-the car was actually 2 cars! whole front was welded on from a different tub

-the engine rebuild was ****, the guy cut the decks too low and the pistons were slapping!

-Best 200.00 I ever spent!

Well, it worked. I don't want to go through even a moment of more aggravation related to this. Buying a 911 should be fun, not a hemorage.

By the way, I am looking for a nice 1991 911, preferrably a C4, coupe, with mileage under 60k at fair market. Would prefer dark exterior, light interior. Would like to see service records and have the car available for PPI. If anyone sees one around let me know!

I'll keep my eyes peeled!

Thanks! Motivated to buy ASAP. Selling my 944 & a 73 MG Midget so looking for a nice 911 to be a "weekend" driver..

1991 (no newer)
911
C4 or C2
60k or less mileage
dark exterior,
light interior
coupe
service records
fair market value

PM sent

Have you also noticed that some people on eBay will keep user ids private. I find this to be a red flag as well. It makes me believe that if someone finds something wrong with the seller or their products, there is no way for you to contact those people to let them know that they are about to get ripped off. I have been ripped off this way from someone selling painted crest wheel caps that I was buying for my Dad's 993. So if I see a auction where they keep the user ids private I do a 180 and find what I am looking for somewhere else.

Interesting, in this case, it was the same.

I believe the rationale given was, by this person, or someone else, I cannot recall, was that the bidders were being contacted by other sellers & trying to undercut them.

IMHO, I think the true reason is so that they can have shills bidding up the price on their cars. I cannot say that this happened here, and it really didn't matter as I was willing to pay what the car was advertised for on their website, but I can see where that could happen easily.

What a mess!

Is there anything this guy in TX wont try? He's the kind of guy that gives other used sellers a bad name.

Now, for the record, I never said he/she was in Texas or that he/she is a he. All I said was a large southern state. So don not falsely accuse any one dealer or individual.

In answer to your query... who knows.



I am certain that most of the time he/she has no problems and honestly represents his/her cars. I think a lot depends on the product he/she's selling. If the car is a gem, then there is no problem, even if the sales pitch is miss-leading. Its only when there's a problem with the car that the miss-information causes issues. If someone sells me a great car, for a fair price, would I care if he/she lied about the service history or condition of the sunroof bag.. of course not. But if they sell a POS and then we find the same problems, it's a major issue.

Probably the seller doesn't even know anything about the car he/shes selling.

Remember, even though its a Porsche, its still a used car saleman. They couldn't care whether they're selling Porsche's or Kia's. All they want is to buy cheap & sell high, keep the profit and move on. It's the nature of their business. Repeat customers will occur on the Gems and not on the pos's. Obviously some of these people are smart enough to "manage" their feedback so the problem trades are not widely known & the positives are shown.

The smartest dealers sell hundreds of cars a year, while we buy 1 or two every few years. They know how to play it better than us and, in most cases, understand how far they can go without getting caught. It's a game we cannot normally win since we play by the rules and they don't.

I think the real question is why we all continue to bid & buy from people like this. I am as guilty as anyone else.. I hope to find the gem in a bag of manure, knowing the odds are against it. I bid knowing the feedback # was low & probably rigged, I bid knowing the number of times they stopped the auction early, I bid knowing that they were hidding the bidders identities. The only answer is for a boycott of sellers who use these types of practices on a consistent basis... or, and this would be hard, owners should refuse to sell to dealers who use these methods and only agree to sell to private owners. hmmm, I like that idea! Maybe eBay should have a seperate section for dealers and a seperate section for private buyers/sellers!

Past registration in a Gulf state is one thing that Carfax WILL have a reliable record of.

Re: Value of doing a PPI
 

yup

Btsave,

I was totally speculating on which dealer you had the bad experience with. You in no way indicated specifically which dealer it was. By the way he has NO legal recourse as far as I know. I am not an attorney but I bounced it off one of my partners who is a non practicing attorney.

Not all dealers are as crooked at this one and some people don’t have the time, patience or skills to seek out and sift through all the stuff out there. Dealers, at least the good ones provide a valuable service to those kinds of people. We’re getting car allowances from our firm shortly and I inquired about a cayman from one of the local dealers which was followed up by no less then 5 phone calls from them in 2 days which is what I wanted to avoid by making my inquires via email. I can’t see buying a car from a dealer but that’s just me.

Regardless we all know very well the kind of integrity a certain shop in a large southern state has. I am glad to see you did not get taken to the cleaners, enjoy the search for a good car.

Thank you :)

No sweat, we all know there is a dealer in a large southern state thats been caught in a lot of bad dealings and likes to make threats about keeping his repuation clean ( as if anyone who checked would believe him) there is no reason to drag you through his garbage.

Hey here's a "nice" 1991 C4 for sale on Ebay! Imagine that.
Ebay Link

I smell Jambalaya.

:D

Last registered in Harvey, LA

09/16/2005 CARFAX AdvisoryTM This vehicle was registered in a county declared a flood disaster area by the Federal Emergency Management Agency ( FEMA ).

Although most vehicles may not have sustained any damage, CARFAX recommends checking for flood and/or other damage during your pre-purchase inspection.

Well the pictures are nice.... as far as whats under the wax and armourall who knows?

Now, Now, Now, you're being much to assumptive here.

That car probably has no flood damage. Wouldn't a refutable dealer be able to determine that by its condition & not want to try and sell it? I mean, really, if it was flooded, wouldn't there be evidence, such as interior corrosion or wiring/electrical problems, maybe even the need to repaint the car?

That would be obvious to any dealer who's been in the business for any length of time as well as any potential buyer. I have to believe this refutable dealer would stay away from such a car as a PPI would easily be able to raise some red flags.

I'm certain this dealer wouldn't want to handle such a car as it would only come back to bite him in the long run when someone leaves a negative comment on eBay.

Plus, it must be a great deal. Look at how many bids it has on it now!

Let's not issue unwarranted negative inferences.

:p

There is one thing you can do. Carfax reports have several links where they ask you to report anything you know about a particular car. They have a web form to report known mileage, the vehicle's condition and your opinion if you saw/test drove it, and general comments, "Tell us what you know about this car. Was it well maintained? Has it been damaged? How did it drive?"

You could use this to report the results of your PPI.

I think we all know precisely the used exotic car dealer in a large southern state, er, republic to whom we are referring here. I spoke with this individual on the phone twice regarding an 86 turbo look Carrera. After talking up the copious maintenance records and virginal condition of the sled in question, he/she demurred specific questions I had with a curt "well, you'll just have to come down, take a look and decide for yourself...." What an ass. Consider yourself wiser for the experience.

This might be a dumb question. but i kind new to this board and porsche. so here it go.

What is PPI ?