Alignment question

[Oh Haha]

In effort to do EVERYTHING on my 911 at home, I tried a DIY alignment check tonight.
Using the tack and tape measure method, I got the same measurement for the front as the back of the front tires. THis means I have ZERO TOE right now, correct?
I'm taking it in Monday but thought I would check anyway.
Thanks,

[Oh Haha]

Forgot the obligitory picture.

[jason2guy]

tack and tape? ive used the string method. set up strings on both sides, equal distance from each other, and equal distance from each front hub and each rear hub. meaning, the space between the string and each pair of front hubs will be the same. and the space between the string and each pair of rear hubs will be the same. its important to get the string, or fishing line thats what i use, set up right or everything will be wrong. then measure your toe

[Wil Ferch]

Tack and tape? ...yeah...look what I wrote for Rennlist a few years back...

covers both "toe" and "camber"....

- Wil

============================

for the toe gauge, you use a 1/2" or 3/4" diameter length of conduit,the length of which must at least span the width of the car. I drilled one end to accommodate a through bolt ( laterally) , that sticks out on both sides... so when this is placed on the ground, it won't roll around. Place this conduit on the ground just in front of the tires, going across the car. Now ( the scary part!), push a "short" thumbtack on the front face of the tire tread(obviously on a tread block so as not to puncture the tire!)..let's call this the 9 o'clock position as you view the driver's side tire, for example. Do this for both front tires. Now, place a plumb-bob ( with string) over the shaft of the thumb tack and drop down until the plumb-bob touches the conduit. Mark this with a fine point pen. Take your time until the bob settles down. Do it again for the other tire. You now have a starting measuremen!
t between the front face of both front tires. Without removing the thumbtack(s), roll the car backwards such that the thumbtack moves up-and-over until it is located at the backside of the tire ( 3 0'clock position on driver's side). Repeat the plumb-bob measurement. Ideally, the *total* dimension on the backside should be a small amount greater than the front measurement ( say... greater by 1/16" or slightly more), to establish "slight" amount of toe-in. If not correct, you must adjust the toe and center the steering wheel per normal methods.
- Camber gauge. This can be plain-and-simple, for one rim size ( the example I cite is for a 16" wheel)...but a friend saw my device and went further to make an adjustable unit for various rim diameters. Your call. Anyway, I started out by selecting a 24" long carpenters water level made out of aluminum, like an "I" beam. Mine had three levels. Held vertically, you would see a "top" level, a "bottom" level, and one in the middle at 90 degrees from these two. Somwhere near the bottom ( held vertically), drill the aluminum frame of this level, to mount a threaded rod ( 6-32 works well)that projects about 3-4 inches from the "I" beam flange of the main frame. To better understand orientation, this rod projects out "to the right" ( say), as you view the water levels. Fasten it by lock nuts so it can't move . About 17" ( actually 425 mm) above this point ( for a 16" wheel) , drill another hole in the "I" beam frame of the unit, but tap the hole with a 6-32 thread tap. Fasten a s!
et of lock nuts to "zero" the same projection as the bottom rod, but do not to allow it to project out less than this amount. However, *do* allow it to thread "out". With this, you can place the vertical water level against the rim ( touching the rim with both the upper and lower rods...necessary for body clearance), and with equal rod projections top and bottom, you would have both the top and bottom levels centered. ( Check this against a known plumb surface). If you have negative camber, you would need to thread "out" a certain number of turns of the upper rod... to re-establish a plumb condition. The neat thing is that you know the distance between the rods, and you know that with a 6-32 rod, there are 32 rotations to each inch of travel. Using "inverse tangent" trigonometry, you can easily measure camber to within 0.1 degree accuracy. I made a chart that easily converts "number of turns" of the upper rod, to equivalant degrees ( assuming the 425 mm distance between the !
rods for a 16" wheel stays the same). I checked this against the $200 electronic devices and found equivalent accuracy. Caveat: search out a good water level, and use one where the water miniscus ( bubble) doesn't quite touch both lines when centered. This helps view the plumb condition with better viewing accuracy.
Hope this makes sense,,....and hope it can help someone. -

[wcc]

Sorry I can't help you with the alignment stuff. But SWEET car anyways!!

I have to do an alignment too, but I'm just going to take it in to have it done. After it's set by the pros I may try the "touch up" alignments at home.

[Oh Haha]

Mine's going in tomorrow to get the front checked.
I was in Lansing Friday and "accidently" stopped by Lansing Imports. Not much to see there, huh? I did look at a Cayman up close but really wasn't inspired by it. I had my Vibe so I'm sure I looked like a total dork. Oh well.

[c2 rower]

I have been working the alignment and wanted to share some pics and thoughts.

Get Fred Puhns book, How to Make Your Car Handle or whatever it�s called.

The single most important thing is being able establish level pads for the wheels, left to right and the surfaces under the chassis reference points used for balancing. The level pictured is NOT good enough, IMO. I brought home a Starret Master (a good machinist level will do, like a Starret series 98) level and put it on a nice straight square tube and used that to map out the floor to figure out what thickness shims are used. This is essential if you want use a kinematic pivot to balance L/R.

The front pivot point is a tooling hole in the pan just behind the front AC condenser. I use a rect box tube with a cap screw head that slips into that hole. On the bottom of the tube is another cap screw that acts as a socket for a steel ball in a plate sitting on the hyd jack. The ref points are the torsion tube covers.

The rear pivot is just the jack under the engine case parting line. I used to be squeamish about lifting here but I've gotten ever that. I use the cast cross member under the rack for reference. Remember to map the floor surface under the ref points with the level!

Camber is the easiest to measure. See picture of gage. Refer back to high school trig. I use plastic shims at the top, each one being 1/6 of a degree.

Toe is done with fishing line and conduit . It is essential that the spacing is the same front to rear! I use the wheel center hole rim to center left/right.

The rear settings are a pain in the ass. You have to study how the eccentric adjusters work. Expect some trail and error. Don't expect to do this in a evening.

[c2 rower]

Why isn't this picture showing up right? I uploaded a jpeg.
[IMG]http://[/IMG]

[imcarthur]

My alignment tools:

Driver weights - old patio stones - 10lbs each



Camber tool - level & a cutoff yard stick. I tie-wrapped the yardstick so I can move it up & down for different tire heights front & rear.


Toe - thread on jackstands. The first time you setup the strings will take hours to get the strings set & squared & perfectly boxed. Then measure the center of hub to string & write this down. After that, you can setup the strings in minutes. Note the wood shims under the tire to level (old panelling works well).




The booklet - thanks Ray!



Ian

[ZOA NOM]

Replace those wooden shims with sheet metal plates with some grease between them and you can make your toe and camber adjustments without ever moving the car.

Also, I tried the string method, but it became too cumbersome. I bought one of those laser line levels and press it up against the hub without the cap, with the laser pointing at the ground. It makes a line alongside the tire long enough to mark a point in fron of and behind the tire to make the toe measurements.

For camber, I use a SmartTool digital level that I also press flush to the hub without the cap. It reads the camber directly. These two tools now make it a snap for me to check toe/camber quickly and easily anywhere I have a flat surface (the digital level on a long straight edge works to confirm a flat area.).

[wcc]

Originally posted by Oh Haha
I was in Lansing Friday and "accidently" stopped by Lansing Imports. Not much to see there, huh?

Yeah, I'm not real impressed with Lansing Imports but I'm going to end up taking my car there for an alignment. When they are the only game in town you don't have many choices.

You should have contacted me and we could have finally got to meet and talk cars. I seems like I always make time for that, especially on a Friday. Last Friday I had my '85 911 out all day running around. Let me know if you are in the Lansing area again, maybe we can get together.....

[Oh Haha]

I was supposed to be in SOuth Bend at 10am for a meeting but it got cancelled at the last minute, literally. After breakfast with the boss, I took the long way home. Didn't see a single Porsche except at the dealer.

Let me know how LI does on your alignment.

[c2 rower]

I am trying to post some pictures. The jpeg files are under a meg. The show up as all black after putting them into the post. Excuse my lack of savvy, but if someone could help I would be very greatful. Thanks

[imcarthur]

Originally posted by c2 rower
The jpeg files are under a meg.

I know Wayne had software that knocked the size down but it seems to be nfg lately. Or maybe it's a bandwidth issue. Make the pics no more than 800 pixels wide (so they fit on the screen nicely) & no larger than 100 kB & you can't go wrong. Sounds like you're 10x too big.

Ian

[c2 rower]

Here is how I attach the reference rods for stringing the fishing line.
Each piece of conduit has a bushing with a lock screw and a small shoulder bolt to position the fishing line. The bolt spacing has to be the same from front ot rear. Use the wheel centers to center the rods to.


OK, compressing the jpegs worked.

Remember to disconnect the sway bar! Which reminds me that i forgot to disconnect the front one.
The blue jack under the front shows the pivot ball under the support tube.

Here is the homemade camber gage