Help!! Left rag in engine compartment!
 

I picked up my 1982 911 from storage yesterday. After about 15-20 minutes of driving in 45 degree temps in noticed a hot smell. I pulled over, opened the engine compartment and to my surpirse I saw the remnants of my shop towel wrapped around my fan belt. as well as bits and pieces all around the engine compartment. Engine was running fine. Oil guages read fine, full and not hot. I pulled out into the street to get into the church parking lot two blocks away. 1/2 a block from the lot I started blowing blue smoke, immediately shut it down and coasted to a stop. I let it set for 15 minutes and started it up. More blue smoke but no noises. I went back today with a new fan belt, installed and started it up. It blows blows blue for about 15-20 seconds and then appears to clear up a bit. If I let it set for a few minutes and restart I see blue smoke for the same period of time.

How much trouble am I in?

Stupid in Minnesota.

Make sure the belt is still tight. The rag may have jarred the pulleys out of adjustment and the belt could be slipping.

Is the blue smoke coming from the exhaust?

Are you saying that blue smoke is coming out of the tailpipe or just the engine compartment in general?

If the smoke is coming out of the tailpipe, my guess would be a possible cylinder head overheat with oil somehow seeping past the valve guides into the combustion chamber.

You probably have pieces of rag laying all around your cylinder's cooling fins underneath the fan shroud too. At the very least I'm guessing that you'll need to pull your entire intake system off, along with the fan and cooling shroud so that you'll be able to see how much of the rag got down in there and then remove it all.

I'll keep my fingers crossed that you didn't overheat the engine big time but I have a bad feeling that you may have :(

I can't tell from your post. Did the car get driven for any time without a fan belt?

I can't tell you how many times I've seen this happen to Corvair owners. The pieces get injested and distributed over the jugs. Can cause an overheating problem.

Re: Help!! Left rag in engine compartment!
 

It would appear by the statement that the belt was somewhat intact.

I'd go with what Scott said and look past the fan. It is posssible, but not likely, that a lot of rag is on top of one cylinder thus preventing proper coolling. You want to know about this. I'd also remove the new belt and spin the fan/alt by hand and watch and listen.

Thanks for the replys:

The belt was completely off the pulley.
I do not know how long the car was driven with out fan running.
Blue smoke comes out of tail pipe.
Fan spins freely with out any noise.

If I did overheat a head, what is the scenario for fixing? Is it as simple as identifying which jug overheaded and pulling that head and having a shop do a valve job? Pull both heads and have both done while I am in there as there is no way to tell if the other side sustained some damage? What would I look for to detemine if I need to replace a jug and cylinder?
I have both of Wayne's books and feel comfortable tackling anything that does not involve splitting the case.

first see how much rag you can account for - see Zeke's post above.

Kirk,

My sympathies, we have all done such things.:(

Don’t start it again, it is conceivable it could further damage itself.

The first thing I would do is to have the cranking compression measured, the cylinder leak test performed and the spark plugs carefully inspected. If you can’t DIY at home, have your 911SC towed to a reputable Porsche shop. That will give you valuable info to make some important decisions.

It is possible something got damaged. When the fan belt comes off the red alternator light comes on. Can you estimate how long that light was on?

There are possible two paths that you might find yourself going down. The first is all you have to do is remove the chards of the rag from the top of the cylinders, heads, oil cooler, heat exchangers, possibly heat control valves and air filter. With some careful driving it might be OK. If so, count your lucky stars.

The more grim possibility is the rings, cylinders and/or heads were damaged. Nikasil cylinders are far more tolerant than Alusil cylinders (your SC could have either) to the point the rings are annealed where you can twist them by hand. The heads could also have been damaged. Usually this is valve, valve guide or valve stem seal. The heads are easily repairable.

There are six individual heads and six individual piston-cylinder-rings-wrist pin sets. Rings are replaceable if both the pistons and cylinders are serviceable/repairable. The heads are easily rebuilt. Common practice is to repair all six at the same time. Otherwise is usually not advisable.


Please don’t despair. :) This is repairable and hopefully on the easy side. Don’t make any decisions without gathering good, reliable information. Don’t let someone disassemble your engine “to see.” You will find a lot of help here in interpreting the information and a good diversity of opinions as to how to proceed.

Best of luck,
Grady

Thanks again for the replies. I am sitting here freaking out that I fried my car for the season. Oh well, I have always wanted to drop my engine.

I do not recall seeing the alt light come on so I do not know how long it ran with out the fan. It was rather cool up here yesterday and I only drove it for 15-20 minutes top. I know that is plenty of time to get things heated up. I do know that from the time I first smelled something to the time I stopped it was only a minute or two. It had been sitting all winter so I was thinking that stuff was burning off the tail pipe etc.

Grady, I am thinking even if I remove the remnants of the rag from inside the engine I still have an oil burn problem?? I did start it earlier and it continues to smoke. It appears to come out of the tail pipe when one cylinder fires. It sort of "puffs".

Are cranking and compressions test easily done by a beginner?

I have been reading this forum for about a year and you guys are the best.

Thanks,
Kirk

When I read rag in fan belt it brought back bad memories.

Memories of my first Porsche 1973 914 I bought in 1977.
I had stuffed a rag in the left front corner of the engine compartment, I used if for checking the oil. The one day I noticed the rag was missing:eek:, no big deal I got another one........soon afterwards I started having trouble with vaporlock and over heating :mad:

You guessed it ...the rag had been injested into the cooling system by the fan, it turned dout to be a very expensive rag.

Hope you did not fry the motor like I didhttp://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/nono.gif

Too late in this case, but it always makes sense to leave your keys on top of the towel you put over the engine.

Kirk,

Yes the cranking compression test and the cylinder leak test are both easily done at home. You need the right tools and a source of compressed air. The tools are available from our host.

Use Wayne’s new search engine, there has been a LOT archived on Pelican about these procedures.

If you think one cylinder is involved, remove the spark plugs, keeping track of which cylinder, and post images. With this kind of overheating you will want to address all six cylinders if necessary to fix one.

The Twin Cities area has a strong PCA region (Nord Stern; Steve Sherf, mailto:ssherf@att.net, 612-867-1649, http://www.nordstern.org/) and many Pelicans. You may find local volunteers to help you and they may have the tools.


KC, more than weekly someone would drive up front at Rennenhaus in a 356, 912 or 914 and ask me to listen to this strange new noise. Almost invariably it was a red-rag in the fan. Almost always the rag was fully intact unless they had been driving for weeks. With my long skinny arm I would fish it out and send them happily on their way.

The difficulty with a 911 is the fan/fan belt will eat the rag, depositing the remnants on important cooling surfaces.

Moral of the story: Never ever leave anything loose in the engine compartment.
Look at my post Here

Best,
Grady

Grady,

Thank you so much for your time and expertise. I have to leave town for a couple of weeks but will pull the plugs and post pics later.

I will look for a leak down gauge and do the necessary testing.

Again, thank you.

Kirk

Hi Kirk,

This is Jeff, with the 83 Cab. Sorry to hear about the rag. Hopefully nothing major has happened. Just started mine the other day, so far, so good. Also, after removing the front truck carpets, found the original tool kit. I was very suprised. See you soon.

Re: Help!! Left rag in engine compartment!
 

if the engine operated without cooling far a few minutes it's probably kaput. Hopefully it's drivable until you're ready for a new adventure.

I've seen burnt exhaust valves spit thru the exhaust. If you toasted your pistons and rings the combustion chamber may see mucho oil. You may be soon able to fog out a tail gater. Maybe while you're gathering tools and info for the comp & leakdown testing ask around for a borescope?

from your replies it seems like you'll be able to build anything.

good luck..

it may only be smoking because it was sitting in storage and the oil that seeped past the rings (normal) has been blown into the muffler where it takes quite a long time to burn out. remove the fan housing and fish out all the rag bits, then run it enough so it stops smoking. i can't see one rag causing overheating bad enough to burn valves, collapse rings etc in 15 minutes. maybe it took 10 minutes of driving before it sucked the rag in. who knows. if it did, then nothing's going to change by running it again. they're pretty tough ya know.

I thought he ran it without a fan felt ?

I am sure that the oil that is burning is not residual from sitting. I started the car a couple of days before to make sure I had enough charge in the battery. I did take it for 100' drive and it smoked like a mosquito fogger. I pulled the plugs on cylinders 1-5 and all were very fouled and oily. Number six is a bugger to get at and will have to wait a couple of weeks.

On a good note I had called my insurance agent to get coverage from storage to my house. I called him after the breakdown to let him know I would need additional coverage for the drive home Sunday. He called today and thinks they will cover the damage. They have covered claims where people forgot to put oil in after a home oil change and also some one who put anti-freeze in their gas tank.

The claims adjuster told him to have me submit a claim.

I am having it towed to the local Porsche dealship for analysis and estimate.

I will keep you posted.

Again, thank you all for you insight.

Kirk

The car was run without the fan belt. I do not know how long it was driven in that condition.

I did break the cardinal rule of deciding to drive it to a different location after discovering the problem. If I had turned it off and left it I more than likely would not be dealing with this problem. Albeit, I would have sustained some amount of unknown damage.

Lesson learned.

I agree with John. This probably is the next step AFTER some measuring that turns out OK. I’m too Scotch to risk an increased disaster when some simple measurements allow me to make informed decisions.

My communication philosophy is to give realistic appraisals and not focus on the easy possibilities or the most dire. Everyone is happy if some situation turns out better than expected. I could write page on the grim possibilities but that doesn’t do any good without factual analysis.

Look at it as an opportunity to gather normal maintenance data – something you should do regularly anyway.

Best,
Grady

I will continue with the original plan. Clean out rag remnants, do a leak down test and run it to see if it clears up and hope for the best.

Kirk

Kirk

Regarding your decision to take the car to a Porsche Dealer for analysis.

I don't know if you have any independent Porsche reapir shops in your area but you might find the expertise (knowledge of early cars) to be better suited at a small shop rather than a Porsche Dealer.

Check your local PCA or ask for referrals on this board.

if I pieced together the rag remants and made an almost whole rag out of them, then I'd just say a thank you, and drive off

I do have a local shop who knows the car. I have been dealing with him for 10+ years. He's good and has a reputation of only doing what is necessary. The shop is Smith Import in Hopkins, MN. Any feedback from Minnesota Pelicans?

Regarding the rag. When I pulled my plugs last night I saw fuzzy remnants of the rag on the threads as they were removed. I think the compartment is full of shredded cotton.

Kirk

Hi Kirk,
Jeff here, neighbor to Anthony and Craig. I have heard alot about AutoEdge, in the White Bear Lake area. I think the guys name is Bob Viau, sounds like View. When some of my Motorcycle dealers found out I bought the Porsche, they all suggested this guy. I guess he does alot of Porsche race prep.

Aaron from FlatSix is in MN. He's a friend of friend (who both post here). look them up & contact him.
hope all this works out.
Kyle.

it's the heat from running without the fan that has either toasted it or not, i think. Anyway this event reinforces spending $50 for a CHT ga.

Jeff,

My insurance adjuster wants to have the engine evaluated so I am holding off doing anything until I can have that done. It goes to the shop today and I should have an estimate next Friday. I will be in the office most of the day give me a call: 763-421-1619

Ronin LB, what is a CHT ga and how would I have benefitted from this?

Thanks,
Kirk

Kirk,

He's talking about a cylinder head temperature gauge. Not many people have these installed on their 911. It would give you a quicker indication that the temperatures were climbing after the fan belt broke, than relying on the oil temperature gauge.

When the fan belt broke, it should have turned on the alternator light. If this light didn't come on, I'd be surprised. Any time this light comes on, you pull off the road and kill the engine ASAP and check the fan belt. It's a good idea to check the operation of all of the indicator lights in the gauges prior to starting the car and then scan the gauges a couple times a minute while driving. It becomes second nature after a while.

JR

JavaDog,

I have never checked the dash lights to make sure they all worked. Good point and it is surely something I will do after I get the car fixed.

I regularly check the dash for temp etc. However, I do not recall seeing the alternator light come on. I was in some bad traffic so I may not have looked at the dash as much as I should have. Especially since it was the first drive from storage.

It's obvious to me now, but the oil temp read fine the whole time as the heads were cooking.

Another expensive learning experience.

Thanks,
Kirk

15 minutes of driving without the fan in minnesota in april, probably doesn't get as hot as normal driving in 110° phoenix in the summer WITH a belt.

This issue seems to come up periodically and the importance of aircooling is not fully understood by some 911-owners.
The oil temp and level will look normal while the cylinders/heads/rings get fried when the fan stops running.
I believe that, aside from the red alternator warning light, the OX light on the '80-'83, comes on as well when the alternator/fan stops running.
Kirk, are these lights not working on your '82?
I didn't know that an insurance co. will pay for engine damage due to mechanical breakdown by forgetting to put oil in the engine or the fan belt breaking.
Certainly not in Canada. Is this true in the US?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by KCinBR
[B]When I read rag in fan belt it brought back bad memories.


Me too. Twelve years ago while living in Seattle, I accidently left a rag back there after washing the car. Early the next morning as I was heading for my reserve job up on Whidbey Island, the red alternator light illuminated....followed by a steady increase in temp. Crap. I pull over, and discover that the rag got wrapped around the fan and pulled the belt off. I manage to get the belt back on with the help of the factory toolkit, but not before dropping the washers down the shroud and then fishing them out with a twig that I found nearby. Twenty minutes later, cold and greasy, I'm back on the road.
Now I'm trying to make up time, and get zapped by instant-on while zooming through an empty state park. Instant $165.00 ticket and I arrive at my destination 45 mins late. Car door got dinged in the parking lot that day, too...:mad:

You learn something new everyday. My oxy light came on last fall and I had a new oxy sensor in the back seat for install this spring. That explains why I did not notice the alternator light coming on.

In refernce to the issue being covered by my insurance company. I had to call my agent Saturday night to let him know I would need additional coverage for Sunday as it was only temp coverage for transport from storage to my house.

He asked what happened and I explained that I had left the rag in the engine compartment etc. He was the one who suggested that it may be covered and he would check with the adjuster. It was just dumb luck that this was covered. With heavy emphasis on dumb.

This engine has 185,000 miles but had a complete top end re-build 25,000 miles ago with all updates. It ran like a top.

Kirk

"Just another stupid boy"
The Gear Daddies

I had the shop do a cylinder pressure test and that came out fine. They followed with a leak-down test and that came up very good. I do not have the numbers yet, but the tech was very impressed with the specs.

They have told me they want to put new plugs in it and start it. When I ran it just after the incident it blew blue smoke like crazy from the tailpipe.

With this new information what could be the possible conclusion? Is it possible to get the heads hot enough to damage the valve guides without damaging the cylinders and pistons?

Any thoughts?

Thanks again.

Kirk

Yes you can damage a head without killing the P&C but bad guides (or a cracked head) usually show up in the leak-down.
If the shop wants to start it up. I say go for it (assuming this is a place that KNOWS air-cooled engines).

Kirk,

WOW, good news.

Not out of the woods yet. All that blue smoke had to come from somewhere. There are two choices; too much oil in the sump tank and the excess getting in the engine or oil coming past the rings or past the (intake) valve guides.

Has your tech checked to see if there is oil in the intake plenum?

Once oil is in the exhaust system it takes a long time to burn it out. If the catalytic converter oil soaked it won’t come up to temperature and burn the oil. The good news is that once warmed up the smoke disappears. The bad news is the catalytic converter may be working burning the oil.

Who has experience cleaning oil from a catalytic converter?

The fact that it has acceptable compression and cylinder leak numbers are good signs.

While there is some risk, I would drain the oil and install fresh, inspect the filter and sump and carefully drive it. Get it up to temperature with some extended driving. A sparkplug check will give you an indication. More accurate will be a CO and HC test from the exhaust sampling port ahead of the cat.

Remember, you still need to find the rest of the rag.

Carefully inspect the fan pulley run-out. The pulley can get bent when the rag threw the fan belt. You don’t want to loose another belt.

Best,
Grady

The shop, Porsche Carousel+Audi, put in fresh plugs, changed the oil and just stared it up. I seems as though there may have been oil in the sump that caused the smoking. They are putting in a new oxy sensor and doing another adjustment relating to a new oxy sensor as well as replacing a plug wire that got damaged. He said everything looks good but might also need some new shims as they were damaged. Probably when I put the replacement belt on. They also suggested a valve adjustment.

They expect to have to work done tomorrow. I will take apart the fan and make sure all of the rag is removed.

I am going to take it easy for a few thousand miles to watch for any tell tale signs of damage.

I got off lucky!!

Grady, thank you so much for your insight and level headed assesments.

This forum is great.

Thanks,
Kirk