Lost my clutch pedal

Beethoven · 10-29-2003, 12:58 PM

I had a few scary moments just now. I had taken the car to the shop to winterize it--change oil, and check on everything. Since the clutch was always a little difficult, and the break fluid was cloudy, the clutch and the breaks were bled as well. On my way back from the shop, in the middle of the freeway, the clutch pedal sinks into the floor and stays there. Luckily I had practiced a little rev-matching so I could get from fourth to third and second, but at the toll booth I really had to ram in first and second. I was trying to figure out what to do when exiting the freeway, and from sheer desperation bent down and pulled the pedal up with my hands. It has stayed up ever since, and the clutch is actually working better than before. I called the mechanic and he said it likely was an air bubble. He wasn't all that specific as to the likelihood of it returning.
Is this bubble still in the system and needs to let out? As I said, I've driven the car for another half hour in the city, and everything seems fine.
Also, it seems that I have a torn axle boot. Is that a big job, and does it require immediate attention?

Barrelling down the shoulderless exxpress lanes at 80 m/h knowing that I don't have a clutch certainly put a bit of spice into my day!!

GrindingGears · 10-29-2003, 01:34 PM

people have posted about a stuck clutch before, i dont get how you can be moving and shifting with the clutch all the way down the whole time?

baaaahhh, i figure it out when it happens to me....

Rick Lee · Rick Lee's Garage

You may wanna check your pedal cluster and throw in a new slave cylinder.

Beethoven · 10-29-2003, 02:31 PM

It's not that the pedal stays pressed down. It goes limp, and you can't press (disengage) it.
Is this something I should be angry about with the shop? I'm also a little weary that they suggested serious transmission work to be done in the spring at the latest, while I feel (with not much comparison, I admit) that the transmission and clutch, while a bit chattering and not absolutely smooth (first to second, sometimes second to third), are still perfectly comfortable for me. Maybe I need a second opinion...

Rick Lee · Rick Lee's Garage

A soft clutch pedal is not at all an indication of imminent tranny work needed. You have a hydraulic and or pedal cluster problem. Maybe something is wrong with your clutch assembly, but it's still not indicative of a tranny going south.

Don Plumley · Don Plumley's Garage

I like Richard's diagnosis. Sounds like a hydraulic problem. Since it is the same hydraulic system as your brakes, I'd be right on top of this as no brakes is worse than no clutch.

Torn CV boot means you are a) losing grease or b) contaminating your CV Joints. Both are bad, but b is really bad.

Yes to immediate attention. Not a big job, but needs one specialized tool (3/4" drive wrench) and a willingess to muck around in some grease. Search on my name for details.

Don

Jim Smolka · 10-29-2003, 05:47 PM

Sounds as if the bearings in the shift fork are going bad (assuming they are the factory orginal). This may have cause the clutch peddle to stay in position. Maybe time to upgrade to the later brass bushing style (requires no drilling of the tranny case & PP has these). I have written a tech article on how to replace the clutch in a G50 car, but Wayne has yet to post. Email me, and a copy can be fwd to you.

Rick Lee · Rick Lee's Garage

I totally forgot about Jim's idea. Yes, that could be it too. If your release fork is going, it gets sticky and you'll need to do a full clutch job. It's a one or two weekend job. DIY it!!!

Beethoven · 10-29-2003, 06:21 PM

Thanks for the advice guys. I think you're right on--the clutch was bled because the breaks were bled to get condensation out. Now that the bubble is out it actually shifts more smoothly than before as the pedal comes out a little more. Should I still have the whole system bled again and recharged ? I pumped the brakes furiously, and they seem to be fine (as is the clutch after its visit to the floor)--drove the car for at least 30 min in the city.
I'll get on the axle boot problem--I can't be losing much grease; at least I have never seen any kind of liquid under the car in the garage since I've owned it.
Winter tires going on next week...

Beethoven · 10-29-2003, 07:47 PM

Richard and Jim,
would the pedal have come up again and worked fine if it was something with the shift fork? And what kind of job are we talking about (can't do it myself--too stupid AND living in a condo)--$500 or $!,500? Can it wait until spring?
Thanks,

ipapilot · 10-29-2003, 08:12 PM

Hey Beethoven, you made the comment you don't see any fluid on the floor and I wanted to point out that you probably would not see anything on the floor from your torn boot. They are packed with heavy grease which will get slung around under your car while driving but would NOT likely drip to the floor. That is why it is such a messy job, all the slung grease will be in the vicinity of the axle/boot.
Brian

masraum · 10-29-2003, 09:19 PM

If the clutch pedal was on the floor, but the clutch was still engaged then either the master or slave is shot and will go before too long (sometimes they do give warning like this). If the clutch is truely on the floor or at least far enough down to disengage, but it is not disengaged, then either you have air in the system (once it's in there it doesn't come out on its own), you have a leak, or your master or slave cylinder is bad.

If the clutch didn't come all of the way back up, but did come most of the way back up then it could be what the others mentioned.

If something caused it to be stuck down, then the clutch should have been disengaged and you wouldn't have been able to go anywhere regardless of gear.

Beethoven · 10-29-2003, 09:39 PM

Steve,
great analysis of the problem. It's got to be air in the system all the more so since I was driving back from the shop where the system was just bled.
Getting the air out is not a big job, I trust?

Don Plumley · Don Plumley's Garage

Bleeding the clutch cylinder is not too hard. It is a tight fit in there, it helps to get your car way up in the air (big jackstands). Hint 1 is to put a box end wrench on the bleed valve first, then fit the hose. Hint 2 is put the hose into an empty (yum!) wine bottle. The weight and thin neck help hold the hose in place. Then a helper presses the clutch as you open the valve, then holds it down as you tighten.

A pressure bleeder (Motive) helps a lot, but if you have lots of fluid and keep watching the reservior, you can get away with easy brake presses (don't go to the floor) and a RR, LR, RF, LF pattern.

Rick Lee · Rick Lee's Garage

If you've already bled the slave, then you either didn't get all the air out or your slave will need replacing soon. I went through about 12 bleeds before I gave up and replaced the slave. Each time, the pedal came back and lasted a few more days. Of course, there's no way to tell whether the slave or the master is bad - or even both. Replace one, bleed VERY well and see what happens. If that doesn't work replace the other, bleed VERY well and hope that does it. This stuff is a PITA, but it's a LOT cheaper and easier to do before you bite the bullet and tear into the clutch assembly. How many miles are on your car and do you know for sure if the release fork update has been done or not?

tsuter · 10-30-2003, 06:42 AM

Masraum wit the master cylinder - those little and not so little o-rings blow by hehehe

KTL · 12:18 PM

This problem requires alot of guessing and we seem to have covered all bases!

The fact that you say the clutch was a little difficult before the pedal hitting the floor problem leads me to believe that it's not only a hydraulic problem, but a mechanical problem in the future as well.

The pedal going to the floor is clearly a hyd. problem. Was the clutch bled manually or with a pressure bleeder? Ask the shop. The system is hard to bleed manually since it's such a long run of the hyd. line. Even the factory repair manual says to pressure bleed it. The master just doesn't move enough fluid on its own to get a good job. Since the problem was not present before, i'd guess that air in the system is the culprit. If the clutch started to feel "squishy," i'd look at replacing the master (under the pedals)and/or slave cylinder (atop the trans.).

I tried bleeding manually and it didn't feel as solid as pressure bleeding. Plus, it's easy to introduce air into the system when manual bleeding since the feed tube is so high on the reservoir. You have to check the reservoir level VERY often!

As an aside here, the brakes and clutch share the same reservoir/supply of hyd. fluid, but not the same hyd. lines. So pressing the brakes a bunch of times is not going to do anything for the clutch problem.

If the clutch feels stiff, you should have it looked over. A hyd. clutch should never feel stiff. It should always feel the same. It's self adjusting, so your pedal travel or engagement point does not change either. A stiff clutch can be a sign of a bad pressure plate, release bearing, guide tube, or release fork shaft. All of which require engine removal to determine the the problem.

Beethoven · 10-30-2003, 03:15 PM

Again, thanks a lot for the good advice. Kevin, I think you're right, it's not only a hydraulic problem but something mechanical that needs to be addressed in the future. When I say shifting was a little difficult to begin with I have to qualify that by saying that my previous car was '70 Coupe de Ville, so what do I know about difficult shifting....I had the feeling that intermittently I couldn't hit second and third right, as though the clutch would not fully disengage. But it was never a constant problem; and after my little adventure yesterday it has actually got marginally better. I also hear a slight chatter when the clutch is engaged (foot off pedal). When I return in the evening (engine hot) there's some kind of rattling under very low load (driving in the garage).
The system was bled by hand, as much as I could see. I don't see any mention of clutch work in the service records since '92. The car has 83700 miles.
I saw it's underside for the first time yetserday--completely dry around the motor and no rust. I hope I can keep it that way!

masraum · 10-30-2003, 03:31 PM

Was the clutch on the floor?
Was the car still moving under it's own power without any slippage?

If the clutch is down regardless of why it is down, mechanical or otherwise then the clutch should be disengaged which means the car won't move under its own power.

Generally if the clutch was on the floor, but you could still drive around without slippage then the master cylinder or slave cylinder piston seals failed or flipped, and when you pulled the thing back manually they re-flipped. If that is the case then that part is on its way out.

Beethoven · 10-30-2003, 04:43 PM

Aha! Yes, I was actually going 80 mile an hour (shifting from 4th to 5th I think), which made the experience so harrowing. Can the seals be replaced or does the whole cylinder have to go?