question: starter problem, or alternator/batery?
 

suddently the car didn't start when I got out of work today. All lights and components look fine. When I twisted the key, I can hear something sounds like the fuel pump and that is all I can hear. No click, no errgg. It's all quiet. I had to push the car myself to get it to start.
When I got home, turned off the engine, restart again and vroom.
I suspect it might be a wire, a relay, or a fuse loose somewhere. Anyone know where I should check into?
Thanks.

Make the guys at Autozone (Pep Boys, O'Reillys...whatever you guys have on the left coast) day....pull in and have them check your battery and alternator output.

I mean after a day of testing POS Cavalliers and Taurus', he'll get to look over a genuine POORSH;)

Oh I feel your pain. The adventure of the yellow wire. Threads on this are extensive. You have a more modern car. Troubleshoot the simple cheap stuff first. Battery terminals, grounds,relays, fuses, wiring (mine has the multiterminal yellow wire) jumpers. My trouble turned out to be the starter even after buying a rebuilt one. Hi torque has solved all of the problems. I did it the expensive way by replacing- battery, starter, 2 solenoids, yellow wire jumper (no effect) even though the voltage was ok to the solenoid. Starter switch, cleaned every ground terminal and post. Cleaned every terminal in the starter circuit. Replaced battery terminal positive. Only thing I did not do was replace the main wire to the starter. Decided to go unoriginal and buy a Hi torque starter just to see. The last part thrown at it solved it. Starts every time and lost som weight in the back as a bonus.

Hope yours is just a dirty battery post. Best of luck!

If I had to bet (which I don't do well), I would say that your starter is starting to seize up when hot. Mine does just what you mentioned. I have got a hi-torque in the garage waiting for install. But mine only does this when hot or warm, sounds like yours is doing this after work. Round file that idea.

When you turn the key, do the lights dim or does the radio stop playing. That may tell you the battery is shot. As Dueller said, a charge and a test on your battery at Autozone (which is free) will convict or vindicate the battery. I would not think the alternator is bad if the starter works after you drive home. Check your voltage when running at the battery. If the charging system is good, you should be in the 14vdc neighborhood, if not you will be in the 12vdc area.

Have the local parts place check the battery. If memory serves right, you don't want it to go under 9 volts under load. If it passes, check all power and ground connections especially the grounds to the body and engine grounding points...you'd be surprised at what a little corrosion can do.

oneblueyedog,
so what wrong with your starter? after you bought a rebuilt starter, solenoid???????

Jubbie,
twist the key, lights don't affect at all. Headlights were still bright.

Netspeed,
I found the negative terminal at the batery is somewhat loose. Where is the main ground point of the chassis, and the engine?

Thanks all much.

Then my vote is somewhere between the starter and ignition switch. From what I have seen, when you have a bad battery connection, all the lights go out when you try to start. Your ignition circuit is good because you hear the fuel pump. Either the starter isn't getting the start message which is a wiring issue between the igniton switch and the solenoid or your starter solenoid is bad.

I would start by trying a direct solenoid jump from the large hot cable. If the starter spins try cleaning the 14 pin engine comp connector. I use a razor blade to spread the male pins so it's a tight fit. The 14 pin connector is silver plated and delicate to abrasives. I use a toothbrush and some thinner then dielectric grease.

If I remember correctly, there's a strap on the trans mount and a couple on the left side of the engine bay. One of the best investments you can get is a Bentley manual for you year of car and I might have an extra one I could sell you...I'd have to find it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rnln
[B]oneblueyedog,
so what wrong with your starter? after you bought a rebuilt starter, solenoid???????

I thought so and I replaced the solenoid. I also took the solenoid apart to clean the contacts. I would get a click back there at the starter. My car would start after twisting the key on an off many times. The solenoids would activate fully with 12V.

I suspect that the first starter broke down after 20 years and the second one only lasted 2 years (rebuilt). When I compared the pieces in the rebuild to the diagram they left out some bushings and there was definite wear on surfaces in the pinion gear assembly. It even took it apart to check the brushes for burns/ obvious stuff. I couldn't find anything.

I was in denial that the rebuilt starter had a problem. It was past the 90 day warranty so I would have had to buy another one or a new one. I'll never really know except that it didn't work and the new Hi torque does. It was a breeze to install.

I don't know if your circuitry is the same as a 78. It may not be a factor with your car. Just disconnect the negative battery cable when you start messing with the circuits/ cleaning terminals.

The starter switch was a very difficult change out. Lesson- throwing parts is a waste. I couldn't find a good diagnostic scheme though.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by oneblueyedog
[B] I feel for ya! I used to manage a service department at a dealership and I can tell you that failed parts that are practically new is the worst scenario. Everything else gets checked because the assumption is that the part is good.

Fuel pump ( on an 87) will NOT run with power "on" and the motor not turning...there is a bunch of continuous BS being stated both here and in other posts like this....

DME cars have a "start permissive" that will NOT allow the fuel pump to run unless the circuitry sensed that the engine is turning..like it would if it were starting normally with the twist of the key and he engine is turning over before it fires....

If both of you guys who said this indeed "hear something"....it's not the fuel pump !

- Wil

Sorry, I am thinking CIS too much. On it, the fuel pump goes if the starter goes or if air is flowing through the distributor plate.

2 years away from motronic and look how much I forget...

just posting for accuracy ..and for accurate diagnostics.....people come to these posts afterwards in a "search"... long after we're done speaking here... can't have bad info in the "archives"...dont'cha know !

- Wil :)

Here are some goofy things that can be the problem...look at my posts here --->

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=187367&highlight=positi ve+lead

and here-->http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=147568&highlight=starte r+problem+Ferch

- Wil

Summary...corrosion under the insulation at big , positive ( +) battery cable...right at battery post connection. Found by gently nudging wire. Also verify clean connection of yellow wire at starter. Go nuts on "grounds"..put extra grounds in everywhere, and re-clean connections for existing grounds.

I totally agree! I'm pretty OCD when it comes to grounds. I saw a vintage race team replace all ignition components and rebuild the carbs trackside because of a bad ground to the coil. Guess what the absolute last thing was that they checked?

I installed an extra starter ground strap. From starter mounting bolt to tranny mount bolt.

If the starter can be jumped it's a heads up on diagnosis.

Will Ferch,
Originally I said "... When I twisted the key, I can hear something SOUNDS LIKE the fuel pump and that is all I can hear". Twist the key meaning twist it to the last position, not only "on" position. And sometimes people missed a detail info is normal Will. Anyway, I appreciate all your guys info. Thanks.

After that day, it starts everytime I twist the key, although sometimes it feel a little weak. Still, don't have time to mess with it yet.

Thanks all.

What I was saying was that even with the key ALL the way over...against the return spring..like it would be when you normally start the car....there still won't be a running fuel pump UNLESS the engine was found to be "spinning" during the start attempt. You also said "nothing" else was happening. This sounds like the engine wasn't spinning to attempt to start. No spin = no fuel pump running.

Next time it acts up.... STOP....go to the trunk and GENTLY wiggle the main power connectors on both battery posts. Get back into the car, and try to start. If it then does...you've found that elusive problem that haunted me and was fixed as I described.

- Wil

Wil Ferch,
I understand what you said. I did that after the car could be able to start and it start from then. Will check that first if it happen again.
Thank you.

Hi RoninLB,
Can you tell me where the "14 pin engine comp connector" located?
Thanks

Wil,
It happen again, and again yesterday.
Thanks for bringing those thread up again.
Regarding gchappel problem (exact same as my problem now), has he find out the real problem, is the main cable to the batery+ or the yellow singal wire to the ignition key?
Did he (or you) figure out the safest path for either of them?
What wire size should I replace it with?
Thanks Wil

Hi

the 14 pin is attached to the rear of the left engine compartment electric panel. It's black, around 2.5 inchs long and 1 inch wide. The removed connector may open and allow internal wiring to pop out of its holder.

I'd suggest disconnecting battery. Remove connector without man handling it. Use a screwdriver to split it apart if necessary. Then notice the connector can be opened from the top. Wrap it closed tight if it tends to open on its own. The point being that the internal wiring could pop out of its designated position.

From my 1st reply
"I would start by trying a direct solenoid jump from the large hot cable. "


This will isolate the problem being either the ability of the ignition switch to trigger the starter solenoid or the ability of the battery to power the starter.

Many times language doesn't get understood. Don't be shy about asking a poster to explain what he wrote.

Thanks Ronin,

What size of wire I should use to replace the yellow wire? Should I use bigger wire, or diff type of wire?

Thanks.

Hi

Ok.. then you're sure it's the yellow wire from the ignition switch is causing the problem ?

I want to eventually change mine with AWG 8ga yellow Anchor wire from the marine store. All wire strands are tinned and the insulation is heavy and strong. It may seem a bit overkill for some but, in my opinion, the starter solenoid may draw much more than its rated amperage of around 6amps. Plus it's a long run. It's worth the extra $5 for the install. The better quality wire connectors are there also.

10ga would be installed at the shop as the logical choice.

If you're going to start snaking wires consider also installing an engine compartment solenoid jump mounted permanently somewhere. I have that installed and it's a great thing to have around. That would be 10ga wire with a marine store Cole Hersee large "momentary on" 10amp switch that costs around $20. It's waterproof, has silver contacts, and a rubber button cover.

"then you're sure it's the yellow wire from the ignition switch is causing the problem ?"

If it's in that circuit maybe it's the ignition switch?

Ronin,
I am not so sure but after reading many thread and opinion. Mine problem seem to be very.. exactly.. to most description. Beside, many people have problem with this wire. It's only benefit to replace it. I am not sure if I can be able to do the power cable but definitely I want to do the yellow one.
So 8ga for yellow and maybe another 8ga or 10ga for the additional start switch huh.
Thanks.

yes and 10ga is plenty good for the engine compartment switch.

I was suggesting earlier the use of a manual solenoid jump from the starter large battery feed cable lug to the solenoid connector that the yellow wire attaches to.

If you can hook the jumper up when the starter won't operate normally from the ignition switch it will give you a direction for your problem. If the jumper triggers the starter then the stock connection from the ignition switch to the solenoid is the area to fix. The ignition switch itself or the yellow wire connection is the problem.

The yellow wire has a Y splitter in my car for the air conditioner compressor that can be dirty. The Y exists whether you have AC or not. It's located under the dash, on the floor of the trunk. The other yellow wire failure prone area is at the 14 pin connection in the engine compartment.

The ignition switch contacts can be tested by running a spare 10ga wire from battery to the yellow wire disconnected from the ignition switch. You attach one end of the spare wire to the stock yellow wire. When you touch the other end of the spare wire to the battery hot pole you'll be delivering voltage to the solenoid bypassing the ignition switch. So now if this triggers the starter then your switch is kaput.

If you are going to buy a manual starter solenoid jump switch get a good one. This operation can be dangerous. Tranny in netural brake on and be careful.


this one is expensive.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1150785682.jpg

Ronin,
If I cut off the yellow wire at the ignition key to connect it to the batery+, then the AC and the 14 pins won't get (+) power.

I was thinking of replacing the yellow wire by cutting off at the ignition and at the starter. Then run a replacement 10ga wire from ignition key to the starter. But base on your explanation, I won't have AC and the 14pins connector power anymore. What happend if you have the yellow uncut while "touching" it to the the battery+?

What is the best way of replacing the yellow wire?
There also be a possiblity of replacing the power cable from batery+ to the sater too right? Base on gchappel problem and tested, mine is so much the same.

If you have not read this long post, yes long, but interesting:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=147568&perpage=20&pagen umber=1

another thought. The yellow wire only get power when the ignition key exceeded the "on" position. When the car start, the key back to "on" position"; at this position, the yellow wire won't have any power. For what purpose would the AC connect to this wire?

If I cut off the yellow wire at the ignition key to connect it to the batery+, then the AC and the 14 pins won't get (+) power.
------------- correct.
You don't cut anything. Remove the plug at the bulkhead above the pedals and stick the test wire in the female part. The idea is to by-pass the ignition sw. If it operates the starter then the problem is the ignition sw. If it doesn't then the problem is in the yellow wiring from the sw to the sol. Maybe the male pin from the ign sw is dirty or loose at the bulkhead connector. Try spreading the male yellow pin a little bit. This assumes that the starter always works if you're jumping the starter solenoid manually.

run a replacement 10ga wire from ignition key to the starter. I won't have AC and the 14pins connector power anymore.
------------ You'll have AC power from another source. The Y connects to a relay that neturalizes the use of the AC relay when starting. The AC compressor will still be engaged if you left the dash AC sw on. Your starter will be under a heavier load when turning the engine if you don't turn the dash AC sw off. OR just install a Y in the new wire for the AC yellow wire. You'll be by-passing the 14 pin connector yellow connection.

What happend if you have the yellow uncut while "touching" it to the the battery+?
----------- "uncut" means it's still connected to sw. Just pop the plug at the bulkhead and you fully disconnect the sw.

What is the best way of replacing the yellow wire?
---------- another pelicanhead replied to this and he sounds pretty good.

There also be a possiblity of replacing the power cable from batery+ to the sater too right? Base on gchappel problem and tested, mine is so much the same.
---------- Everything is a possibility with electrics. The battery cable is a long shot. Try finding out what the exact problem is first. I'd like to replace mine if I'm ever in that area.

The yellow wire only get power when the ignition key exceeded the "on" position.
-------- No.
It gets power when the key is turned to "start". The "on" position is where the key falls after starting.

key back to "on" position"; at this position, the yellow wire won't have any power.
-------- correct

For what purpose would the AC connect to this wire?
------------ to unload the AC compressor when starting.. see above.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1150810556.jpg

thanks Ronin

Pictures in this post show the kind of under-insulation corrosion that caused me fits to find my occasional no-start problem, that I talk about here, within this thread--->

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/329355-burnt-carpet-fried-wires-what-happened-pics.html

- Wil

Thanks Will,
I kindda solved some and unsoved some related problem. At first I/we thought of many things. It turn out that it was the alternator/batery related. I rebuilt the al, batery is bad. Replace batery, drove for a while, dead again. Maybe it was the al which put out too high voltage (sometimes up to 14.9 or 15 v) or maybe simply because I don't drive the car that much. With a brand new batery, it can last for proximately 10 days or a little longer. If the batery is drained and recharged , it will last less (maybe dead in a week. Right now, I have another brand new batery and just have to check it after several days. If it's below 12v, I have to start the car and let it run for coupld mins.
I had a diff old car before and it does the same thing while I never have this problem with new cars. On my other newer cars, I can leave it untouch for months without a problem. Why?

Wil The schematic below is what FR Wilk tells me is in the DME. The fuel pump runs when pin 20 of the DME is pulled to ground energizing the DME relay.

The blue arrow is the direction current will flow when 12 volts from the yellow wire is appled to pin 4 (turns on NPN darlington).

The red arrow is the direction current will flow when the DME detects the engine is running and command the pump on (also turns on transistor).

Note that either of these conditions will run the fuel pump.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1171049243.jpg

Is there a way to test the yellow wire?

In other words, hook something up to the wire and measure under various conditions (at rest, ignition on, ignition switch turned to start, etc)?

What should the normal readings be at the end of the yellow wire under those conditions?

When I jump the lug that the yellow wire attached to on the starter, jump it to the post where the 12V hot wire from the battery attaches to the starter, I get sparks, but no starter turning. ???

So, when you turn the ignition sw to the "on" position (all the way turned against the spring), the yellow wire should receive 12V?

So to test the yellow wire, I can attach a test wire directly to the positive side of the battery, and touch it to the lug that the yellow wire attaches on the starter, correct?

That should spin the starter?

Seems like that pretty much narrows it down to the starter.

Do youe hear anything out of the starter when you do this? Like the solenoid pulling in?

No, nothing but a pretty good spark show when I try to make the connection.