question: starter problem, or alternator/batery?

rnln · 06-01-2006, 05:51 PM

suddently the car didn't start when I got out of work today. All lights and components look fine. When I twisted the key, I can hear something sounds like the fuel pump and that is all I can hear. No click, no errgg. It's all quiet. I had to push the car myself to get it to start.
When I got home, turned off the engine, restart again and vroom.
I suspect it might be a wire, a relay, or a fuse loose somewhere. Anyone know where I should check into?
Thanks.

Dueller · 06-01-2006, 05:57 PM

Make the guys at Autozone (Pep Boys, O'Reillys...whatever you guys have on the left coast) day....pull in and have them check your battery and alternator output.

I mean after a day of testing POS Cavalliers and Taurus', he'll get to look over a genuine POORSH

oneblueyedog · oneblueyedog's Garage

Oh I feel your pain. The adventure of the yellow wire. Threads on this are extensive. You have a more modern car. Troubleshoot the simple cheap stuff first. Battery terminals, grounds,relays, fuses, wiring (mine has the multiterminal yellow wire) jumpers. My trouble turned out to be the starter even after buying a rebuilt one. Hi torque has solved all of the problems. I did it the expensive way by replacing- battery, starter, 2 solenoids, yellow wire jumper (no effect) even though the voltage was ok to the solenoid. Starter switch, cleaned every ground terminal and post. Cleaned every terminal in the starter circuit. Replaced battery terminal positive. Only thing I did not do was replace the main wire to the starter. Decided to go unoriginal and buy a Hi torque starter just to see. The last part thrown at it solved it. Starts every time and lost som weight in the back as a bonus.

Hope yours is just a dirty battery post. Best of luck!

Jubbie · 06-01-2006, 06:42 PM

If I had to bet (which I don't do well), I would say that your starter is starting to seize up when hot. Mine does just what you mentioned. I have got a hi-torque in the garage waiting for install. But mine only does this when hot or warm, sounds like yours is doing this after work. Round file that idea.

When you turn the key, do the lights dim or does the radio stop playing. That may tell you the battery is shot. As Dueller said, a charge and a test on your battery at Autozone (which is free) will convict or vindicate the battery. I would not think the alternator is bad if the starter works after you drive home. Check your voltage when running at the battery. If the charging system is good, you should be in the 14vdc neighborhood, if not you will be in the 12vdc area.

Netspeed · 06-01-2006, 07:30 PM

Have the local parts place check the battery. If memory serves right, you don't want it to go under 9 volts under load. If it passes, check all power and ground connections especially the grounds to the body and engine grounding points...you'd be surprised at what a little corrosion can do.

rnln · 06-01-2006, 08:37 PM

oneblueyedog,
so what wrong with your starter? after you bought a rebuilt starter, solenoid???????

Jubbie,
twist the key, lights don't affect at all. Headlights were still bright.

Netspeed,
I found the negative terminal at the batery is somewhat loose. Where is the main ground point of the chassis, and the engine?

Thanks all much.

Jubbie · 06-01-2006, 09:48 PM

Then my vote is somewhere between the starter and ignition switch. From what I have seen, when you have a bad battery connection, all the lights go out when you try to start. Your ignition circuit is good because you hear the fuel pump. Either the starter isn't getting the start message which is a wiring issue between the igniton switch and the solenoid or your starter solenoid is bad.

RoninLB · 06-02-2006, 05:00 AM

I would start by trying a direct solenoid jump from the large hot cable. If the starter spins try cleaning the 14 pin engine comp connector. I use a razor blade to spread the male pins so it's a tight fit. The 14 pin connector is silver plated and delicate to abrasives. I use a toothbrush and some thinner then dielectric grease.

Netspeed · 06-02-2006, 05:01 AM

If I remember correctly, there's a strap on the trans mount and a couple on the left side of the engine bay. One of the best investments you can get is a Bentley manual for you year of car and I might have an extra one I could sell you...I'd have to find it.

oneblueyedog · oneblueyedog's Garage

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rnln
[B]oneblueyedog,
so what wrong with your starter? after you bought a rebuilt starter, solenoid???????

I thought so and I replaced the solenoid. I also took the solenoid apart to clean the contacts. I would get a click back there at the starter. My car would start after twisting the key on an off many times. The solenoids would activate fully with 12V.

I suspect that the first starter broke down after 20 years and the second one only lasted 2 years (rebuilt). When I compared the pieces in the rebuild to the diagram they left out some bushings and there was definite wear on surfaces in the pinion gear assembly. It even took it apart to check the brushes for burns/ obvious stuff. I couldn't find anything.

I was in denial that the rebuilt starter had a problem. It was past the 90 day warranty so I would have had to buy another one or a new one. I'll never really know except that it didn't work and the new Hi torque does. It was a breeze to install.

I don't know if your circuitry is the same as a 78. It may not be a factor with your car. Just disconnect the negative battery cable when you start messing with the circuits/ cleaning terminals.

The starter switch was a very difficult change out. Lesson- throwing parts is a waste. I couldn't find a good diagnostic scheme though.

Netspeed · 06-02-2006, 06:25 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by oneblueyedog
[B]

Quote:

Originally posted by rnln
I was in denial that the rebuilt starter had a problem. It was past the 90 day warranty so I would have had to buy another one or a new one. I'll never really know except that it didn't work and the new Hi torque does. It was a breeze to install.

I feel for ya! I used to manage a service department at a dealership and I can tell you that failed parts that are practically new is the worst scenario. Everything else gets checked because the assumption is that the part is good.

Wil Ferch · 06:55 AM

Fuel pump ( on an 87) will NOT run with power "on" and the motor not turning...there is a bunch of continuous BS being stated both here and in other posts like this....

DME cars have a "start permissive" that will NOT allow the fuel pump to run unless the circuitry sensed that the engine is turning..like it would if it were starting normally with the twist of the key and he engine is turning over before it fires....

If both of you guys who said this indeed "hear something"....it's not the fuel pump !

- Wil

Jubbie · 06-02-2006, 06:44 AM

Sorry, I am thinking CIS too much. On it, the fuel pump goes if the starter goes or if air is flowing through the distributor plate.

2 years away from motronic and look how much I forget...

Wil Ferch · 06-02-2006, 06:57 AM

just posting for accuracy ..and for accurate diagnostics.....people come to these posts afterwards in a "search"... long after we're done speaking here... can't have bad info in the "archives"...dont'cha know !

- Wil

Wil Ferch · 07:21 AM

Here are some goofy things that can be the problem...look at my posts here --->

Positive Battery Cable Replacement

and here-->starter problem- still- any help or ideas?

- Wil

Summary...corrosion under the insulation at big , positive ( +) battery cable...right at battery post connection. Found by gently nudging wire. Also verify clean connection of yellow wire at starter. Go nuts on "grounds"..put extra grounds in everywhere, and re-clean connections for existing grounds.

Netspeed · 06-02-2006, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wil Ferch
Go nuts on "grounds"..put extra grounds in everywhere, and re-clean connections for existing grounds.

I totally agree! I'm pretty OCD when it comes to grounds. I saw a vintage race team replace all ignition components and rebuild the carbs trackside because of a bad ground to the coil. Guess what the absolute last thing was that they checked?

RoninLB · 06-02-2006, 09:49 AM

I installed an extra starter ground strap. From starter mounting bolt to tranny mount bolt.

If the starter can be jumped it's a heads up on diagnosis.

rnln · 11:21 PM

Will Ferch,
Originally I said "... When I twisted the key, I can hear something SOUNDS LIKE the fuel pump and that is all I can hear". Twist the key meaning twist it to the last position, not only "on" position. And sometimes people missed a detail info is normal Will. Anyway, I appreciate all your guys info. Thanks.

After that day, it starts everytime I twist the key, although sometimes it feel a little weak. Still, don't have time to mess with it yet.

Thanks all.

Wil Ferch · 06-04-2006, 11:27 AM

What I was saying was that even with the key ALL the way over...against the return spring..like it would be when you normally start the car....there still won't be a running fuel pump UNLESS the engine was found to be "spinning" during the start attempt. You also said "nothing" else was happening. This sounds like the engine wasn't spinning to attempt to start. No spin = no fuel pump running.

Next time it acts up.... STOP....go to the trunk and GENTLY wiggle the main power connectors on both battery posts. Get back into the car, and try to start. If it then does...you've found that elusive problem that haunted me and was fixed as I described.

- Wil

rnln · 06-04-2006, 12:26 PM

Wil Ferch,
I understand what you said. I did that after the car could be able to start and it start from then. Will check that first if it happen again.
Thank you.