Carrera 3.2.... 3.4 rebuild or 3.6 swap?

[911teo]

I have been reading about all the coversion threads... here is my situation.
My car has 125k on the clock. A rebuild will be on the cards soon. It still pulls strong, no oil leaks or anything.... but I know it's coming.
This is my 1st 911... I am getting into DEs and I would eventually try and do some Club Racing.
So I have 3 options:

1) Rebuild 3.2 and keep the car stock. Numbers will match, resale would be positively affected, can still take the wife and kids around at the weekend. Can race in Club Class F. Cheapest of the 3

2) Swap 3.6. Resale more difficult... I guess it could be worth less than a standar 3.2 in the same condition. Still can take the kids and wife to the mall at the weekend... but no more Class F. Will get destroyed GT2R unless I go for some major weight loss program (yes for me and the car). DEs would be fun but CR would be a waste of time unless I put $$$ into new seats, brakes, suspension setup, etc

Which leaves me with option 3)
Rebuild 3.4. Keeps the car in GT3R class, could go with twin ignition, Race pistons and all the goodies... Probably would cost as much as the 3.6 swap but if I ever decided to go into CR it would be more competitive.

I know the sensitive thing would be to keep it stock.... But it's not really exciting is it?

I know the key here is how serious I am abt the CR... It's just that I don't know how much free time I will be able to dedicate to it in the future. I am working on a couple of projects that would make it possible financially...

Has anyone here done the 3.4 conversion? I have read about Mike Feinstein's and MuffunMan experience with the 3.6 vram.

Thanks for your comments

Matteo

[surflvr911sc]

Originally posted by 911teo
This is my 1st 911... I am getting into DEs and I would eventually try and do some Club Racing.

Because of what you want to do w/ it and it being your first 911, I would leave it stock for now. Learn how to drive it, have fun, and decide on the direction you would like to take it after some experience.

[rpiper]

You'll get smoked in GT3R too. All the GT classes are hyper competitive. I'd do a 3.6 and keep it as a nice street/De car, and when you want to go club racing get a dedicated STOCK class car that someone else has built up. It's too expensive to create a race car from a street car (BTDT). Just my $.02.

[schlag]

Hm, I think you still have another 75-100k to go before you have to think seriously about this?

[ttweed]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Leave the car stock and enjoy it. Upgrade with necessary safety equipment to do DEs only (seats/belts/fire ext., etc.) and get some seat time before making any decisions. If you decide to go Club racing, sell it and buy a dedicated race car, as Bobby says.

My $.02
TT

[andyu911]

Matteo,
I'd face the same dilema hopefully not too soon. I do some DE with my car also, but seldomly drive it on the street because of it's stiff suspension. I'd like a 3.6, but I'd end up in some other race class. To stay in the same class and concentrate on my driving, I would rebuild the 3.2 with upgrade components and make it durable. When I'm ready to move on, with tow vehicle and trailer etc..., I'd get a real race car. My $.02.

[911teo]

rpiper
I thought I could do something ala Jack Olsen (I have just read here and there abt his car) and get a 911 that can hold it's own on the track and be driveable on the street.

Andy
there are a lot of things I'd do abt my car but will contact the PCA to find out what I can really do to it and still keep it in Class F.

[KTL]

I'm sure 3.6L upgrades are nice, but don't forget that the 3.6 is most likely going to be a USED motor. USED -----> may need a rebuild in the not-so-distant future? Just a thought. If that were to happen, you'd be eating the cost of the 3.6 swap, plus the cost of a rebuild. That'd hurt a little.

At least with the rebuild of your existing motor, you'll end up with a fresh one. And if the pistons & cylinders are in need of replacement? Then you can opt for the 3.4 solution. Otherwise you might be able to reuse the P's & C's. I know a stock 3.2 is not the fastest thing to ever roam the earth, but it's not exactly slow.

I agree that if you're dead set on going racing, get a purposeful 911 (at a much lower cost) in which to do it. Stripping down a car that has a good street value is not a wise idea IMO.

[IROC]

Originally posted by 911teo
1) Rebuild 3.2 and keep the car stock. Numbers will match, resale would be positively affected, can still take the wife and kids around at the weekend. Can race in Club Class F. Cheapest of the 3

I dare say that you won't be "taking the wife and kids around at the weekend" and "club racing in Class F" in the same car. Not gonna happen.

IMHO, I would keep the car totally stock and enjoy many more years (probably) of trouble free service out that 3.2 (not that many miles, really) and find another car to club race.

Plus, if you haven't done *any* track events yet, surflvr911sc's advice is very prudent.

Mike

[rpiper]

Well in stock class you cannot change anything between the airbox and the exhaust ports besides swapping in Ti retainers on the valve springs. Of course when you rebuild you can certainly "optimize" within the factory specs.

BBII is a gorgeous car and perfect for the events Jack does, but it would not be competitive in PCA racing either, notwithstanding Jack's apparently excellent driving abilities.

[911teo]

Maybe I need take a cold shower and wake up from my dreams... I will go and check out what they really race in PCA GT3R before bothering you guys with all my silly ideas...

Rpiper/IROC
I though you HAD to keep the car stock in every part (OEM seats, suspension, brakes, trasmission etc) to run the stock classes. I went throught he rulebook and my car (88 US Carrera) is in F Class.

[rpiper]

Here's the rulebook: http://www.pca.org/pca/clubrace/docs/forms.htm
Yours would be in "F" as you state. You have to have an interior but the seats need to be race seats (or at least the driver's does). Many people have RS carpet kits with the rear seat bottomsin place and that's fine. For the suspension, parts have to remain "stock" in terms of their type, not their size. i.e. you can't switch from torsion bars to coilovers. But the size of the parts (except brakes) is free. So you can put huge torsions, ultra stiff shocks, huge sway bars. The bearings are free. Strut bars are fine. The cage is free provided it remains within the passenger compartment (cannot tie into suspension pickup points)and meets safety specs. Brakes have to be stock OEM but can use whatever lines and fluid and cooling that you want. Transmission must remain OEM but a trans cooler is allowed. So you see, the cars are not really "stock", but there are limits in the stock category so all the fast guys usually end up with the same setup. You won't get beaten because the next guy built a screaming 3.8L that lasts only half a season, and is installed into a full cf tubeframed 1800lb chassis etc etc the way you will in the GT classes.

[Elombard]

jacks car is not set up to Club race (not that it couldnt) Its a hyper DE car, he does the OTC and other racing, not wheel to wheel where the rules are much different. Take it from some one who has been there and the sage advice above, dont take a nice street car and turn it into a race car - buy one already built. What ever you do it will be fun!!

[911teo]

Thanks guys... It all makes a little more sense now. I have some DE experience (back in the UK I trackked some Elises, Caterhams, Scoobys and single seaters) and the odd go-kart race. My 1st goal is to have fun. I am not a pro and wouldn't do CR to win. To me the 911 ownership is all this... This BS, the PCA, Rennlist forums, DEs and the long term goal of Club Racing. My friends play golf... I wanna take my car to the track.

Thanks again for your replies.... It looks like I will stick with the 3.2 which I'll freshen up before getting into CR. I plan to attend 7-8 DE events in the next 10-12 months.... before make the jump to have my rear spanked by the pros....

[89911]

Originally posted by KTL
I'm sure 3.6L upgrades are nice, but don't forget that the 3.6 is most likely going to be a USED motor. USED -----> may need a rebuild in the not-so-distant future? Just a thought. If that were to happen, you'd be eating the cost of the 3.6 swap, plus the cost of a rebuild. That'd hurt a little.

At least with the rebuild of your existing motor, you'll end up with a fresh one. And if the pistons & cylinders are in need of replacement? Then you can opt for the 3.4 solution. Otherwise you might be able to reuse the P's & C's. I know a stock 3.2 is not the fastest thing to ever roam the earth, but it's not exactly slow.

I agree that if you're dead set on going racing, get a purposeful 911 (at a much lower cost) in which to do it. Stripping down a car that has a good street value is not a wise idea IMO.

I'd have to agree with KTL. I did the same thing and went with a 3.4 P and C's, Twin Plugs, Cams, and figured while I was at if, got 3rd through 5th regeared. Also a ton of extra's. Probably cost more then a 3.6 transplant, but I haven't seen too many of those that have done it saying that was cheap either. I know my engine and car's numbers match and should be good for as long as I need it.

[jpachard]

I would drive the car as is in DE until it really needs attention. I started in F with my '87 and now progressed to E since I was having a tough time managing brakes. While the car isn't the top of the heap it's super reliable and is scary fast. In some ways I wish I had bought a sub 2.5 liter car and really learned how to drive but my skills have grown into the Carrera, now I wouldn't trade it for the world. For me, it has just enough power yet I still really have to work on momentum and rely more on suspension setup instead of Hp to get my way around the track. Club Racing is a blast and you meet some of the nicest folks on the planet! I built my car but I started with a very well prepped DE car so the only real investment was a cage which I built myself and development time in the suspension( this can get rather expensive, especially in a stock class car since this is where you make the car competetive). Best of luck and really enjoy the DE's because once you run wheel to wheel, you won't ever be the same.

Cheers, James

[Kevin Stewart]

im not sure I agree its your car do as you please, an 88 coupe with over a 100k is not real high on the want list, in other words its not a low mile concours car, and its just one of many just like it in better or worse shape, (i have it worse a 82 targa, who wants a 82 targa) what im saying is its a cool car what ever route you take, just remember the 911 hotrod club is expensive and you get tons of ribbing from purist, ask me how I know, and you are sure to loose money with it, Kevin

[Carrera3.5L]

If you're considering 3.4L, why not go for the 100's and 3.5L? Taking the top end down is 85% of the work, why not split the case and change the main and int. shaft bearings, magnaflux the rods and crank (polish as well) and have the extra peace of mind of a full rebuild? It's only about 10 hours or so of extra work labor wise. Cost is a little more for 3.5L because you have to machine the case spigots for the larger bore (about $200), but you have to chamfer the heads whether you do 98's or 100's so its a wash there cost wise. I don't know if the price is the same for 98's and 100's but the extra 4% power increase between 3.4L and 3.5L may come in handy! A 3.5L with the right bolt-on parts will make in the 260-270 bhp range on pump gas even with the Motronic. Plus, it can still be smogged if that is important where you live. With Carbs or stand alone engine management and better cams, over 300 is possible.

I'm just starting a 3.5L project and fortunately am able to do it pretty cheap (about 7K in parts) so it is a pretty good alternative to a 3.6L transplant with a used motor that may or may not have to come apart. I want to do it one time and one time only.

BTW, Mahle 98's for the Motronic are out of stock with pretty much everyone right now, although I think that Andial has a 1 set on the shelf. 100's for the Motronic are not available right now in the U.S. but apparently they have them on the shelf in Germany according to Mahle Motorsports.

I'm using Mahle 100's designed for the carb/MFI injection but using the stock Motronic. Since I am twin-plugging, getting rid of the wedged dome style pistons that the CIS/Motronic use in favor of the more conventional piston shape with the valve relief cut-outs is better suited to my needs. Just got the Andial splitter today and got a good 993 distributor on ebay for $260!

Tough call whether to stay 3.2L, increase displacement on your stock motor or do a 3.6L transplant. In my case, the low cost of using high quality parts and free labor made my choice a no-brainer.

Good luck with whatever direction you decide.

Ralph

[Steve W]

In the end, if you decide to go bigger displacement, don't use SSIs, but larger diameter exhaust primaries. They will restrict your top end significantly - ask me how I know