No turn over on recent engine drop/install.
 

I just got my fuel injection put back on my 82sc. I had replaced miscellaneous seals etc. I marked my wiring connections and took pictures of all that I took apart, however, I have one connection that doe not seem to have a home.

I also have a problem in that the car does not turn over. I hear the solenoid kick in. There is a buzz in the ignition in the engine compartment. All the lights work as do the windows and sunroof.

I hear a noise from the fuel pump like it is engaging but not pumping.

The engine rotates as I have done so with the fan. The connections are solid at the starter and the battery has a full charge.

Is it possible that polarities got reversed and they are trying to run backward?

There is a remote possibility that the connections for the cold start and the throttle body got reversed.

I did forget to disconnect the battery prior to pulling the alternator and had a spark while removing one of the connection on it. I touched the fan housing with my wrench.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1149967216.jpg

Simple check, all fuses, that spark you spoke of could have blown a fuse? I'm hopin for you.

Kirk,

If you removed the flywheel to replace rear main seal [wrong terminology for a 911 engine, but that's what everyone calls it] ... is it possible that the ring gear is not installed, just the clutch pressure plate??? If so, that is why the starter solenoid engages, yet the engine won't turn!

If the ring gear is in its' proper place ... you need to check the #50 lead at the starter solenoid to see what Voltage is present during cranking. Anything below 10.0 Volts is not satisfactory. The Yellow #50 lead at the 14-pin connector might be the problem.

Serge, All fuses checked and accounted for. I will check voltage.

Warren, I removed the engine with the transmission attached.

The connection that needs a home is at the center of the picture. Any thoughts?

Kirk

Did you remember to reattach the large braided ground wire that runs from the transmission to the chassis?

I remember that when connecting the copper ground that the body looked a bit grim. I had cleaned the braided portion. I will check and clean the connection and use dielectric grease.

Thanks!

Kirk

Warren,

There are two connections at the starter. I installed a lightweight starter last year. Two wires mate to one and produce eight volts. The main connection produces one volt.

I have twelve volts at the terminals on the battery. I have cleaned the terminals and the connection between the body and the transmission.

The fourteen pin connector to which you refer is on the sidewall in the engine compartment? I assume that I would look for a loose/corroded connection?

Thank you for your assistance.

Kirk

I just finished pulling my alternator to check and clean all connections. I had my fan housing powder coated. Is this a possible concern for grounding? I took my Dermel tool to the area where the alternator meets the housing to clean it up. I know there is good connection there. I also poweder coated the plate on which the coil mounts. Could this explain lower voltages?

Thanks for any and all replies.

Kirk

Ok, new development. I cleaned the ground strap from engine lid to body and a few other grounds. I went to try to start again and was unable to turn my key in the ingnition. It was not locked as a result of the steering wheel. It took six to eight trys to get the key to move.

Could ignition problems with the key cause a lack of proper voltage to the starter? Lights etc. all work.

Thanks,
Kirk

I might be mistaken but that connection looks like it goes to the heater blower.

Alan

--------------------------
206AA
1979 911 SC Coupe

Kirk,

The electrical portion of the ignition switch can indeed be the source of starter lead #50 Voltage problems!

The ground connection from alternator body to fan housing is not terribly critical, as there is a separate ground strap from alternator through-bolt to engine case centerline case bolt. That strap's condition is critical, though!

I did this last December to mine and have had zero problems since. The key feels like it is engaging the switch, but it is not.

My key tumbler/ignition switch was not turning all the way into the engage starter position...turn the key and it was like hittting a wall prior to engaging the starter. This started out as happening every so often, but then, lucky for me it quit all together inside my garage.

I sprayed in some brake cleaner followed by using a magnetized mini flat screwdriver and massaged both the upper and lower tumblers inside the switch. I then went with WD-40 and repeated the process with the screwdriver and then my key.

Finally after a bunch of in and out (not the fun kind) I tried the key and bam, it worked. Tried it a few more times and everything seems to be good.

Hope this helps someone else along the way, those switches are big $$'s.

Warren,

Thanks for the lead. I was searching the past posts when I came upon a post by RaryL8. He had experienced similiar problems. I was finishing up ordering a new switch from Pelican when I got your reply.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=275616&highlight=igniti on+problems



Can't wait to get it and see if it works.

Thanks again!

Kirk

Warren,

I do not have a ground strap from the alternator through-bolt to the engine case centerline bolt. I went back to the pictures I took during disassembly and did not see it in those. The only connections I have are the three on the back of the alternator.

What am I missing? The car ran well prior to disassembly for cleaning etc.

Kirk:
You'll see the heavy ground-wire in Wayne's book on page 30.
Top of picture. The wire attaches to the first bolt in the case seam.
This bolt is a little longer than the others in the seam.
As for the Solenoid clicking due to problems with the ignition switch: Over the years, the yellow wire gets weak; it's a long way from switch to the starter-Solenoid.
Also, instead of the switch carrying the load, some people install a relay.
The ignition switch will then energize the relay which carries the Voltage to the Solenoid. This relay is available here at PP.
In the meantime, why don't you test your starter by using a long, seperate wire from the battery to the Solenoid?
Take it out of gear, attach the wire to the positive on the battery, then touch the connection-spade on the Solenoid. Expect a little spark but the Solenoid should engage and spin the starter.
As for mixing up the CSV with other connections, it is possible. Compare the colors on the wires to the electrical diagram for your year.
The Bentley Repair Manual has them.

Gunter,

Thanks for the tips. I was looking PP for the relay and came up with the "ignition cutoff relay". Is that the one to which you are referring?

I had thought about jumping the starter but read a few things about the power in there. I think I will attach the spade bit to the solenoid and then hit the + on the battery. It makes me a bit nervous to lie under the car and do that.

I have been looking for a replacement ground for the alternator and have not had any luck with Pelican or some other unnamed supplier. What would be your recommendation? Electrical is my weak spot.

Thanks again.

Kirk

Kirk,

I had forgotten that the ground strap was eliminated for a while ... probably a beancounter's power play!

Here it is at Pelican:

ALT.GROUND CABLE
- This is a special-order, non-returnable, part
(availability and shipping charges may vary).
OEM-91161223300 $5.29

Warren, thanks for the part number. I got it ordered and it's on the way.

Gunter, I made the patch wire between the solenoid and the + on the battery. The alternator did the same as previously. It just clicks. I checked it with a voltage meter and I get a full ten volts. Do you think I fried my new starter when I grounded out the alternator with my wrench touched the fan housing?

I am guessing a new starter is in the offing...live and learn...again. Do you know if the lightweight high torque starters can be rebuilt? I have a local shop that seems to know a few things about starters.

Thanks again to all who have helped. This is truly a great way to help and learn. And save a few $$.

Kirk

How old is the battery? A repair shop will test it free.
After you are sure that the battery is good, take the starter to a qualified shop to check it out. Or you can test it yourself by clamping it securely into a vice and wiring it accordingly to similate operation.
It sounds like your starter is fairly new, makes me think this:

Solenoid clicking usually means not enough juice to make the starter turn. Both, positive and negative circuits have to be good meaning: the ground is just as important as the 12V.
Check the ground-connection from the neg terminal of the battery to the body. It can be rusty. Remove the bolt holding the neg strap, clean everything, including the body area. Dielectric grease and reconnect.

The relay to take the load instead of the ignition switch is here:
http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/images/electrical/hot_start_kit.jpg
I believe it comes with instructions; ask PP.

As preventive maintenance: carefully pry the 14-pin connector apart with a small screwdriver. Put dielectric grease on the pins.
Do the same with the 6-pin connector sitting next to the left shock on top of the firewall. Careful!

With a new ignition switch, good battery, starter checked out, hot-start relay installed, it should just hum.
Let us know your progress.

OK, I've replaced the electrical portion of the ignition switch. Put in a hot start relay switch. Had the battery tested. Removed the starter and bench tested it. I am waiting for the ground strap that attaches to the alternator.
I still have a no start situation. I get the solenoid to engage but not the starter. I tested with the voltage at the starter and am still getting eight to nine volt at the starter. I ran a lead from the battery to the solenoid and checked with a voltage meter and still get nine volts.

What the heck...?


Kirk

Another post just found the problem after much work and parts-replacement: A NEW battery that failed after having been tested twice by one shop.
Bench testing:
The solenoid would energize and the starter would spin?
Strongly? Several times?
Starter installed:
Solenoid energized (Noticable click) but starter will not spin?
I would have the battery tested by a shop that can put a real load on it.
Remove all wires from the solenoid/starter. Put a good battery close to the starter. Run a heavy gauge wire to the pos starter connection and the neg to where the regular ground strap is connected on the transmission.
Now bridge the pos starter-connection to the spade on the solenoid.
The solenoid should energize, engage, and spin the starter.
If not, I would suspect an internal problem with either the contacts being burned or there is no proper ground.
Ensure that the car is out of gear and securely jacked up while you are under there.

Dr.,

I hooked the starter up as instructed. I used the battery from the car after fully charged. The starter engaged the flywheel and turned over the motor! Damn that + lead gets hot fast when it is rubbing your face.

Now that we know the starter engages and turns the motor where too next?

My wife has always said I get too much mileage out of your line "You don't know what you don't know."

I am this close to shipping it off to the shop. It's almost July and I have only driven this thing about 12 miles.

Thanks for the help.

Kirk

I would leave the fully charged battery connected to the pos terminal on the starter. Meaning: The battery is underneath the car, close to the starter, short heavy gauge wire connected to the pos on the starter.
The neg battery cable is connected to the transmission where the ground strap normally is connected.
The yellow wire from the ignition switch is now connected to the Faston spade on the solenoid. (There is another yellow? wire connected to the solenoid which goes to the timer for the cold start valve).
Crawl out from under and turn the ignition key.
Is the solenoid kicking in and the starter rotates the engine?
If not, I suspect that the yellow wire from the ignition switch is old and tired. Run a new wire, it's been done by a few people, do a search.
If the engine actually starts with the improvised set-up, I suspect that the heavy black wire coming from the battery up front has a problem making it to the starter. (The black wire comes from the battery, the red wire comes from the alternator; they both go on the same connection on the starter) Check the condition of the crimped-on terminals.
Since you can make the starter run with the improvised set-up, the problem appears to be in the existing old wires.
Let us know what you find.

Gunter,

I connected everything up as instructed. The yellow ignition wire has a smaller yellow wire with a blue stripe attached to it. The two are connected to the male (Faston) spade on the solenoid.
The + lead is connected to the starter bolt and the ground is secured under the grounding strap at the transmission.

Nothing happens when I turn the key. No ignition buzz or initiation of the fuel pump and no dash lights.

I assume that the yellow wire from the ignition switch to the solenoid is too weak. Is it possible to run a new wire from the ignition switch to the solenoid to check that circuit or should I just plan on replacing the wire?

Regarding the hot start relay. How are most mounting it and where? I was thinking of mounting it forward of the starter on the wall where the seat bottom is and using zip ties to bundle up the loose wires. How best to mount the fuse portion of the relay? Heavy duty double stick tape to the relay?

Kirk

Gunter,

Would an auxilary starter switch be a better option as well as easier to install?

I am still a bit of a newbie to the site. In doing a search for replacing the yellow wire, how would I do a search specific enough to get the one who has completed the rewire? Is it possible to be that specific?

I know...questions, questions & more questions.

Thanks again for you assistance. It is greatly appreciated.

Kirk

Kirk:
No problem; we'll fix this. Trouble-shooting is done by elimination. We know that the solenoid and starter works with the previous test.
Before you change the yellow wire, it is possible that the ignition switch is at fault. It is made in two parts: The front, for the key, and the rear with the electrical connections.
The electrical part is available for exchange.
Test: Leave everything connected as normal except: Disconnect the pos solenoid connection (Yellow wire) and run an outside 14-16 gauge wire from the pos battery terminal to the solenoid. Out of gear, ignition on. Now touch the solenoid connection with the external wire. It should energize the solenoid and spin the starter. If it does, I suspect the electrical portion of the ignition switch is faulty.
If it doesn't, there is a possible problem with ground or, the heavy black wire from the battery to the starter may be getting weak. Corrosion? Terminals?
Test: Connect an external heavy 10 gauge wire from the pos terminal of the battery to the starter connection together with the red wire.
By running external wires from the battery, the stock wires are circumvented. In all of this, it is still possible that there is a problem with ground.
Have you disconnected the short neg cable from the body next to the battery? Removed the bolt and cleaned the area and terminals?
Try the suggestions above; it only takes long external wires.
As for the "Hot Start Kit", it is connected as you suggested yourself.
I only go on line in the early morning.
Let me know how the tests work out.
Here is a post with similar problems:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/288837-starter-battery.html
And that ended up being the battery after much work and new parts.

Gunter,

I was not able to remove the grounding bolt for the negative from the battery. I put a 13mm nut on the back and tried to back it out. I put enough force on it that I felt that I may snap it before removing it.

I did test #1: connecting the solenoid to the + on the battery with the ignition on. I connected the lead and got the solenoid to engage but not the starter.

I did test #2: Connecting the starter directly to the battery and was able to start the engine! It sounds like I did not properly adjust my valves (more noisy than before ) and that there is a bit of residual oil in the system (blue smoke coming from the right side heat exchanger.)

A bit of history on why I am where I am. I started the car while in storage this spring. I placed the rag I used the check the oil in the engine compartment closed the hood and proceeded to drive home. Along the way I noticed a strange smell. I was two blocks from the church parking lot, hit the gas and two seconds later I saw blue smoke.

I shut it down immediately. It turned out the rag went through the fan and knocked off the belt. The Porsche dealer checked it out and said all was fine except for intake gaskets. I decided to do that and other miscellaneous things my self.

The car has 185,000 miles with a complete top end rebuilt at 162,000 and new head bolts.

Thus, that is why I am where I am.

I did replace the electrical part of the ignition during this procedure as I was previously having hot start problems.

Any other thought?

Again...Thanks,

Kirk

Gunter,

I went out to try the car again late last night. I tried the starter jump and got nothing. I thought I may have missed something and checked my connection and tried it again. It worked that time.

I hooked up my charger for the night. I went out this morning to try it with a fully charged battery and got nothing. No spark at all.

By the way, the alternator light was on last night. I did replace the oxy sensor during the engine drop as the light came on last fall prior to storage.

Thanks,

Kirk

Make sure you account for the whole rag; small parts from it resting against cylinder-fins will cause excessive heat there.
If you couldn't get the bolt off, it means that it is rusted in. Soak with penetrating oil and try again. If it breaks off, drill it out and re-tap the thread. I replaced mine with SS.
If you don't have the Bentley Repair Manual, get one and trace all ground connections. The neg is as important as the pos. Open and clean.
I use dielectric grease on all electrical connections, especially the 14-pin and 6-pin plugs.
It sounds to me that you may have a bad ground or not enough juice is going to the starter.
Try this: Everything connected as normal except: remove the heavy black wire from the starter and connect an external 10 gauge heavy wire from the pos of the battery to the starter meaning: You have the red wire (From the alternator) and the external heavy wire from the battery connected to the starter. Now turn the ignition key.
Does it start?
If so, there is a problem with power supply to your starter with the existing stock wires.
If it doesn't start with this test, I suspect a bad ground.
If it only makes the solenoid click but doesn't crank the engine, it can only be a bad battery, pos wires or ground.
The solenoid doesn't take much power but the starter uses a lot of Amps.
A solenoid is just an electro-magnetic switch that engages the starter into the ring-gear on the flywheel and at the same time provides an internal contact that energizes the starter.
It's hard to do it from a distance; do you have a friend, or Pelican head, nearby who understands the issue?
The problem is probably very simple.
Please, do the test above and let me know exactly what happens.
Couldn't get on the site yesterday; PP was down.
Are you sure your battery is up to it? Charged and load-tested?

If the alternator light is on, it indicates a problem with the charging system. You need to remove the alternator and have it checked.
Make sure that the ground wire from the engine-case to the alternator is connected. Some '82's didn't have the wire from factory but Porsche recommended it to be added.
If this car wasn't well maintained during it's life, the wiring and ground connections are suspect.
Just charging the battery doesn't mean that it is good.
I suggest that you take it to a shop and have it load-tested.

Gunter,

The engine was removed in order to get all of the rag as well as replace intake gaskets, injector seals etc.

Is the ground bolt counter clockwise to remove? The car came from San Diego and has absolutely no corrosion on it. There is no corrosion on either the mount point or on either of the cables. Where did you get an SS bolt?

I have so much diaelectric grease in this that I am beginning to have thoughts of lust for this vehicle.

Did you mean to disconnect the black wire from the battery? I do not have a heavy black wire connected to the starter, only a red one. I did disconnect a black wire from the battery, about the same size as the yellow wires, and ran a #10 lead to the starter with the red wire. I then turned the key to start and connected the lead to the + battery. Nothing happened. No energizing of the fuel pump, lights etc. Ground??

I also disconnected the main cable from the battery, clamped the lead to the +, and ran the lead to the starter and got absolutely nothing.

Something new seems to be happening. Previously my fuel pump was only engergizing when the key was all the way in the start position. It now runs in the run position. Like it should? I assume that I had cleaned a ground that previously was not making ground.

With the hot start relay installed the starter makes a click when the key is turned to the run position. I get ten volts at this point but nothing at the soleonid. The hot start instructions call for hooking up the blue wire to the blue wire with a stripe. I have a smaller yellow wire with a blue stripe. I assume this is the correct one as the other wire appears to be the yellow wire from the ingnition.

I have the alternator ground strap arriving tomorrow. I had the alternator bench tested. The tech found that one of the brushes was hanging up. He cleaned the armature and blew compressed air to clean things up. He said the rest of it was good. I pulled the battery and had a seperate shop load test it. It came out good. Second test. First test came out good as well.

I did start it again after having the alternator checked out. The car ran again but the battery light and the oxy sensor remained on. Does the oxy sensor have a dual function as the alternator light? I seem to remember that from a prior post.

As far as local Pelicans, I will wait for the ground strap and your reply before sending up the white flag.

Thank you so much,

Kirk

Fuel pump should only run when the engine is turning over and inducting air: either by being turned over by the starter or actually operating and running. If the engine is not operating and running, then the fuel pump should not run even with the ignition key in the "on" position. Check that the wiring plugs for the CSV and air flow switch are plugged in and not switched for each other - this is a very common error.

Jim,

Thanks, but please help me a bit. What are the CSV and the air flow switches and where are they located?

Your input is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Kirk

Kirk:
You need a Bentley SC Repair Manual which has the electrical schematic for your car in it.
We are going around in circles here.
The starter has to have 2 heavy pos wires connected: One is black from the battery, the other is red from the alternator. Ground for the starter, and solenoid, is internal.
The solenoid has 2 connections: One is the yellow wire coming from the ignition switch, the other is from the timer for the cold start valve.
It sounds like you have other issues with the electrical system and a limited understanding of wiring/continuety.
My suggestions for testing with external wires can only work if you supply both pos and neg (ground) to the component.
I strongly recommend that you get a Bentley and read, read, read so you understand the function of all the components like valves, wiring and switches. With the schematic, get someone with electrical knowledge to help you before you go further.
Your wiring needs to be examined and restored to stock. Ox-light has nothing to do with the alternator light and the alternator light should not be on. The pump should not run with ignition on.
There must be a Pelican head nearby; post a new thread asking for help in your area. If I was close by, I would come and sort it out in an hour. The long distance diagnoses and help can only work if you had the schematic, and understanding of electricity.
Get someone to help you but make sure that this person knows how to read schematics and knows electricity.

I was away for 3 days and will be gone again for the long weekend. Let us know who will come out to your place and what was wrong with the wiring to the starter.
My feeling is that it is a simple issue.

Well I finally have my car running. I decided that after driving Gunter crazy I should find a resource that could help me. I found a shop that would take a look.

I called AAA to have the car towed there. As the guy was securing the car on the flat bed it caught on fire. He came running in and said " I think your car is on fire". I popped the engine compartment everything was OK but smelled of an electrical fire. I popped the front trunk and there was a lot of smoke but no flames. I disconnected the battery and sent her on the way.

The shop identified the problem as a short in the wiring in an after market alarm system. He wanted to remove the whole thing and I said to go a head. It shorted out a headlight wire and the yellow ignition wire. I had also neglected to connect the "black" power wire to the starter. That explains why I could not see it as it was draped across the transmission. Duh.

The electrical fire also blew out my new high torque starter. He replaced it with a stock Bosch unit. He mentioned that the high torque starter does not have a connection for the Cold Start Valve. That explains my start problems after installing the new starter.

Other than that he said the car looks and runs well.

I pick it up tomorrow.

Thanks to all who attempted to help me. I saved some money doing things myself but also learned something by having a competent mechanic look it over.

For Pelicans in the Minneapolis area check out www.flat6.com

The owner is Aaron, good guy.

Kirk

Kirk,
Sounds like what just happened to me! I replaced my engine because of pulled head studs and when I put the new engine in, it wouldn't start. Several mechanics later, Tab Tanner from Autobahn Garage in Findlay, OH found the old alarm and removed it. Now the car starts and runs well, but the alternator is bad and Tab is rebuilding it. My Optima battery (4 months old) is also dead and won't hold a charge. I wonder if the "alarm from hell" could have damaged both components? Good luck, I'm glad you found the problem!!

Art,

This is too unreal. After the shop took my car off the lift, he emailed me that the alternator was not charging. I am having him remove and repair it.

My alarm is a Clifford. It was in the car when I bought it. Does anyone else have a similiar history with this?

Kirk

Another proof that some people don't really read instructions for help.
I pointed out that there has to be a BLACK wire from the battery to the starter, etc..........
Kirk, I suggest that you do not attempt anything electrical, it's not your bag. Let the shop disconnect the old Clifford and restore the electrical connections to stock.
You can sell the High-torque Starter here on PP, it doesn't need an extra connection for the CSV; a simple splice takes care of that.

Best wishes. SmileWavy

My old "alarm from hell" is a Hofco II from 1985 and Tab Tanner found it immediately. I never would have found the alarm because it also had a Bosch relay wired into it. At times like these, it's best to have an "expert" look into it and diagnose it. It would be too time consuming and expensive to troubleshoot something like this... especially if you're a novice to 911's.

Gunter,

Thanks for your help. It is greatly appreciated.

Touche'

Kirk