No turn over on recent engine drop/install.

Kirk Lundmark · 06-10-2006, 11:21 AM

I just got my fuel injection put back on my 82sc. I had replaced miscellaneous seals etc. I marked my wiring connections and took pictures of all that I took apart, however, I have one connection that doe not seem to have a home.

I also have a problem in that the car does not turn over. I hear the solenoid kick in. There is a buzz in the ignition in the engine compartment. All the lights work as do the windows and sunroof.

I hear a noise from the fuel pump like it is engaging but not pumping.

The engine rotates as I have done so with the fan. The connections are solid at the starter and the battery has a full charge.

Is it possible that polarities got reversed and they are trying to run backward?

There is a remote possibility that the connections for the cold start and the throttle body got reversed.

I did forget to disconnect the battery prior to pulling the alternator and had a spark while removing one of the connection on it. I touched the fan housing with my wrench.

sergeshishik · sergeshishik's Garage

Simple check, all fuses, that spark you spoke of could have blown a fuse? I'm hopin for you.

Early_S_Man · 06-10-2006, 11:49 AM

Kirk,

If you removed the flywheel to replace rear main seal [wrong terminology for a 911 engine, but that's what everyone calls it] ... is it possible that the ring gear is not installed, just the clutch pressure plate??? If so, that is why the starter solenoid engages, yet the engine won't turn!

If the ring gear is in its' proper place ... you need to check the #50 lead at the starter solenoid to see what Voltage is present during cranking. Anything below 10.0 Volts is not satisfactory. The Yellow #50 lead at the 14-pin connector might be the problem.

Kirk Lundmark · 06-10-2006, 01:00 PM

Serge, All fuses checked and accounted for. I will check voltage.

Warren, I removed the engine with the transmission attached.

The connection that needs a home is at the center of the picture. Any thoughts?

Kirk

Motorhead-45 · 06-10-2006, 03:10 PM

Did you remember to reattach the large braided ground wire that runs from the transmission to the chassis?

Kirk Lundmark · 06-10-2006, 08:16 PM

I remember that when connecting the copper ground that the body looked a bit grim. I had cleaned the braided portion. I will check and clean the connection and use dielectric grease.

Thanks!

Kirk

Kirk Lundmark · 06-12-2006, 04:17 AM

Warren,

There are two connections at the starter. I installed a lightweight starter last year. Two wires mate to one and produce eight volts. The main connection produces one volt.

I have twelve volts at the terminals on the battery. I have cleaned the terminals and the connection between the body and the transmission.

The fourteen pin connector to which you refer is on the sidewall in the engine compartment? I assume that I would look for a loose/corroded connection?

Thank you for your assistance.

Kirk

Kirk Lundmark · 06-12-2006, 08:16 AM

I just finished pulling my alternator to check and clean all connections. I had my fan housing powder coated. Is this a possible concern for grounding? I took my Dermel tool to the area where the alternator meets the housing to clean it up. I know there is good connection there. I also poweder coated the plate on which the coil mounts. Could this explain lower voltages?

Thanks for any and all replies.

Kirk

Kirk Lundmark · 06-12-2006, 09:16 AM

Ok, new development. I cleaned the ground strap from engine lid to body and a few other grounds. I went to try to start again and was unable to turn my key in the ingnition. It was not locked as a result of the steering wheel. It took six to eight trys to get the key to move.

Could ignition problems with the key cause a lack of proper voltage to the starter? Lights etc. all work.

Thanks,
Kirk

206aa · 06-12-2006, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kirk Lundmark
Serge, All fuses checked and accounted for. I will check voltage.

Warren, I removed the engine with the transmission attached.

The connection that needs a home is at the center of the picture. Any thoughts?

Kirk

I might be mistaken but that connection looks like it goes to the heater blower.

Alan

--------------------------
206AA
1979 911 SC Coupe

Early_S_Man · 06-12-2006, 02:07 PM

Kirk,

The electrical portion of the ignition switch can indeed be the source of starter lead #50 Voltage problems!

The ground connection from alternator body to fan housing is not terribly critical, as there is a separate ground strap from alternator through-bolt to engine case centerline case bolt. That strap's condition is critical, though!

madmmac · madmmac's Garage

I did this last December to mine and have had zero problems since. The key feels like it is engaging the switch, but it is not.

My key tumbler/ignition switch was not turning all the way into the engage starter position...turn the key and it was like hittting a wall prior to engaging the starter. This started out as happening every so often, but then, lucky for me it quit all together inside my garage.

I sprayed in some brake cleaner followed by using a magnetized mini flat screwdriver and massaged both the upper and lower tumblers inside the switch. I then went with WD-40 and repeated the process with the screwdriver and then my key.

Finally after a bunch of in and out (not the fun kind) I tried the key and bam, it worked. Tried it a few more times and everything seems to be good.

Hope this helps someone else along the way, those switches are big $$'s.

Kirk Lundmark · 06-12-2006, 02:29 PM

Warren,

Thanks for the lead. I was searching the past posts when I came upon a post by RaryL8. He had experienced similiar problems. I was finishing up ordering a new switch from Pelican when I got your reply.

CIS Hard Cold Start - If You've Ever Had This Problem PLEASE READ THIS

Can't wait to get it and see if it works.

Thanks again!

Kirk

Kirk Lundmark · 06-13-2006, 05:07 AM

Warren,

I do not have a ground strap from the alternator through-bolt to the engine case centerline bolt. I went back to the pictures I took during disassembly and did not see it in those. The only connections I have are the three on the back of the alternator.

What am I missing? The car ran well prior to disassembly for cleaning etc.

Gunter · Gunter's Garage

Kirk:
You'll see the heavy ground-wire in Wayne's book on page 30.
Top of picture. The wire attaches to the first bolt in the case seam.
This bolt is a little longer than the others in the seam.
As for the Solenoid clicking due to problems with the ignition switch: Over the years, the yellow wire gets weak; it's a long way from switch to the starter-Solenoid.
Also, instead of the switch carrying the load, some people install a relay.
The ignition switch will then energize the relay which carries the Voltage to the Solenoid. This relay is available here at PP.
In the meantime, why don't you test your starter by using a long, seperate wire from the battery to the Solenoid?
Take it out of gear, attach the wire to the positive on the battery, then touch the connection-spade on the Solenoid. Expect a little spark but the Solenoid should engage and spin the starter.
As for mixing up the CSV with other connections, it is possible. Compare the colors on the wires to the electrical diagram for your year.
The Bentley Repair Manual has them.

Kirk Lundmark · 06-13-2006, 01:31 PM

Gunter,

Thanks for the tips. I was looking PP for the relay and came up with the "ignition cutoff relay". Is that the one to which you are referring?

I had thought about jumping the starter but read a few things about the power in there. I think I will attach the spade bit to the solenoid and then hit the + on the battery. It makes me a bit nervous to lie under the car and do that.

I have been looking for a replacement ground for the alternator and have not had any luck with Pelican or some other unnamed supplier. What would be your recommendation? Electrical is my weak spot.

Thanks again.

Kirk

Early_S_Man · 06-13-2006, 02:46 PM

Kirk,

I had forgotten that the ground strap was eliminated for a while ... probably a beancounter's power play!

Here it is at Pelican:

ALT.GROUND CABLE
- This is a special-order, non-returnable, part
(availability and shipping charges may vary).
OEM-91161223300 $5.29

Kirk Lundmark · 06-13-2006, 06:41 PM

Warren, thanks for the part number. I got it ordered and it's on the way.

Gunter, I made the patch wire between the solenoid and the + on the battery. The alternator did the same as previously. It just clicks. I checked it with a voltage meter and I get a full ten volts. Do you think I fried my new starter when I grounded out the alternator with my wrench touched the fan housing?

I am guessing a new starter is in the offing...live and learn...again. Do you know if the lightweight high torque starters can be rebuilt? I have a local shop that seems to know a few things about starters.

Thanks again to all who have helped. This is truly a great way to help and learn. And save a few $$.

Kirk

Gunter · Gunter's Garage

How old is the battery? A repair shop will test it free.
After you are sure that the battery is good, take the starter to a qualified shop to check it out. Or you can test it yourself by clamping it securely into a vice and wiring it accordingly to similate operation.
It sounds like your starter is fairly new, makes me think this:

Solenoid clicking usually means not enough juice to make the starter turn. Both, positive and negative circuits have to be good meaning: the ground is just as important as the 12V.
Check the ground-connection from the neg terminal of the battery to the body. It can be rusty. Remove the bolt holding the neg strap, clean everything, including the body area. Dielectric grease and reconnect.

The relay to take the load instead of the ignition switch is here:
http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/images/electrical/hot_start_kit.jpg
I believe it comes with instructions; ask PP.

As preventive maintenance: carefully pry the 14-pin connector apart with a small screwdriver. Put dielectric grease on the pins.
Do the same with the 6-pin connector sitting next to the left shock on top of the firewall. Careful!

With a new ignition switch, good battery, starter checked out, hot-start relay installed, it should just hum.
Let us know your progress.

Kirk Lundmark · 06-21-2006, 08:33 PM

OK, I've replaced the electrical portion of the ignition switch. Put in a hot start relay switch. Had the battery tested. Removed the starter and bench tested it. I am waiting for the ground strap that attaches to the alternator.
I still have a no start situation. I get the solenoid to engage but not the starter. I tested with the voltage at the starter and am still getting eight to nine volt at the starter. I ran a lead from the battery to the solenoid and checked with a voltage meter and still get nine volts.

What the heck...?

Kirk