DYNO numbers for my 76' 2.7Turbo EFI(Tbitz)
 

Well I finally got my car on the Dyno yesterday. Sort of dissapointing, I thought that the numbers would be higher.

The car is a 2.7 Turbo with Tony's EFI kit. The car run's awesome and over all the numbers are good. I was able to get 189 RWHP with 198 Tq. Assuming 15% that gives me 217 HP. I am a liitle dissapointed because I think that I can still get more.

The firs run that I had with my setup was the 189, they guys at the Dyno said that the car was running lean and that I should richen it up. My problem is that my LM1 was telling me that on that run I was at 12.5 AFR where the dyno was saying 14 AFR. As I richenned it up I kept losing power on every pull. On the last run they said to take it to my original numbers and the car ran the second pull that is on the attached graph of 182rwhp. He thought that it was lower due to heat soak on the motor so we just stopped for the day.

My turbo seems to be comes on over 100KPA at 3500 rpm and reaches full bost of 4.3lbs at 5000 maintaining the 4.3lbs until redline. I need to work at getting the turbo to get more boost. I don't know what I need to do here yet. This is where I know that I can get more power. I should be able to go to 7-9lbs.

Ignition is MSD with timing computer and Pertronix.

Now let's see some suggestions.

Oscar
Akron, Ohio
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1152285984.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1152286012.jpg

I'd bet the LM-1 was right and their sensor was wrong, which lowered the power as you went more rich.
As for boost, that's easy .Just get a mecvhanical boost controller. I got one on e-bay for aroujnd $25.
It blocks the boost signal to the waste gate until it reaches a certain set point which is adjustable.
What was the stock HP for that engine, around 150? if so you have added 67 hp which is substantial for less that 5 lbs boost.

I have a boost controller that I haven't hooked up yet. But I was thinking that with a 9lb spring on my waste gate it shouldn't open yet?

No offense intended but if that was MY car, I'd ask for my money back. That is horrible power for a turbo. My basically stock 3.0 I'm sure puts out more than that.

Wayne, your stock turbo isn't a 2.7.
it isn't running 4.3 lbs boost either.

This engine obviously needs to be dialed in and will probably get close to the 250 hp mark once everything is set up right with is killer for a 2.7.

If we asked BB how much he has invested I'd guess that even at the point he is at today, he is still getting more HP per $ than most people.

As the engine was righened up even further that the starting point the combustion temperatures fell which reduced the energy going to drive the turbo. If you bumped it up to around 12.8 to one (according to your LM-1) you would get more power and probably more boost.
What kind of wastegate are you running?

Mine isn't a turbo. Just a stock Euro spec 3.0 with CIS with a performance muffler. Bone stock was claimed to be 204HP and 267 ft lb. Again, I don't mean to be rude but it seems like you should be able to get way more horsepower out of a turbo'd engine.

I would expect at least 300 HP.

Let me ask a dumb question of you guys:
Is the 2.7 such a good starting place for a turbo motor?

I was actually considering a BAE setup in the future but if I cannot make a sizeable increase, what's the point?

When I bought the car it had the BAE kit installed. I have done the EFI and all the engine work. If I had the money I would just turbo a 3.6 but since I had the 2.7 I want to see what it can do. I know I can get a lot more out of it but I needed a place to start. Eventually I will be running 7-9lbs which should give me plenty of power for a car that's right around 2800 lbs.

Oscar

I understand the money thing, for sure. If Ihad the money I would be doing a 3.6 conversion to my SC.
Good luck and I hope you get the output optimized through tuning.

To get 300 hp out of the 2.7, there will need to be $'s spent inside the engine and outside as well. Oscar will do some tuning and adjusting and get more power and it will be cheep good power. And it will be faster than a standard sc or carrera.

Getting 300 out of a 2.7 is expensive.
It should be do-able to get 250 from one without breaking the bank though.

I would be happy with 250-270. I just rebuilt the engine last year so it w/timecerts linebored... so it should hold up.

The only issue would be if the compression is too high and if you have intercooling. 270 is where I want to be with my 3.0 and 930 induction and fueling. In a nut shell, You may get 300hp with the efi for a little while. Then you may need to rebuild again with additional costs like pistons and twinplugging. 300hp is a lot to ask for but if you have anough $?

I am using the stock CIS pistons.

Oscar

That's flywheel HP and torque, if you're tuned well you'd be making about 173 HP and 226 ft/lbs at the wheels.

For reference I ran my carbed '81SC (late model 34mm intake ports) on the very same dyno and got 174 HP and 180 ft/lbs at the wheels. My car according to the dyno as well as my AF gauge was leaning out at high rpm due to a bad fuel pump.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=291307&highlight=dynoje t+fun

Don't forget your engine is also 10 percent larger than Oscar's 2.7.

Oscar, I think you're off to a great start and this is why I like dynos, you can actually see what the changes to the engine make in terms of power. The guys at Akron Horsepower are really nice and in passing they mentioned they've got extra O2 bungs on their cars for tuning. I'd bet if you weld in a bung they'll put their O2 sensor right in your exhaust if you ask ahead of time. Are you running a wideband or narrow band O2?

Get that boost up where it should be and I bet you make the HP you want. Have you played with timing at all?

I agree with sammy2g's thoughts. You added fuel and hurt the power output. 5000 rpm threshold for full boost sounds awfully high. Make sure you don't have any leaks.

Oh Haha, 267 ft-lbs from a 3.0? That must be Euro ft-lbs... :rolleyes:

Christian, I am running a LM1 Wideband sensor. That's why I was confused. My readings kept showing me that I was at 12.5 but they kept saying that I was lean. The guys at Akron Horspower are pretty cool. Was almost embarrassed the car before mine was a plain looking Mustang that they had tuned for the kid at around 550rwhp.

Compare apples to apples, not apples to lemons. His car will be clapped out in a few short years and yours will be a turbocharged calssic forever:)

Have you done a calibration on your LM-1? Very important. I found my LM-1 to be more accurate than the POS DynoDynamic lambda sensor.

What turbo do you have? What is your total timing? There are so many variables your mind can blow.

[

Oh Haha, 267 ft-lbs from a 3.0? That must be Euro ft-lbs... :rolleyes: [/B][/QUOTE]

You're right.
I'm an idiot. I went back to my books and it IS in Nm. I finally found one that shows the torque in good ol' "Merican values.
192ft lb@4300PRM

I'll just go over here and mind my own business now.:(
Sorry about that.

Hehe, no sweat. I have a Euro engine in my SC. It's stout, but not 267 ft-lbs worth o' stout. :D
jurgen

I am going to calibrate the LM1 again this weekend. I am running the RAJAY turbo, will find out the model. I am running the MSD timing computer hooked up to my MSD 7btm. I have it set at 35 degrees. I still need to look at the ignition and other things, I just needed a starting point prior to making any changes.

I am also going change the pipe that goes from the headers into the tubo...make it bigger. I had made it smaller to see if it would make the turbo come on earlier. I think it worked backwards

pic's of exhaust pipehttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1152317660.jpg
and motor

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1152317863.jpg

Here's picture of pipe I made to hook up turbo

And of course the had to have gratuitus picture of the carhttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1152318086.jpg

That car is sweet, but it's all show and no go. Heck my saab dynoed at the wheels with 236hp and 267ft lbs of torque. Ge that bad boy tuned.

Do you have a boost gauge? Is it calibrated? I can't believe that your wastegate isn't holding boost longer than 4.3psi. I would expect more like 7lbs or so with that 9lb spring. Running lean at high rpms isn't good of course. That Rajay turbo may not be super efficient either. I have one sitting in my garage and it is pretty old technology compared to my old silver dollar sized turbo from my GTi. You may want to check your wastegate for stickage. Also if you use a manual boost controller you need to make sure your wastegate is functioning properly or it is just boost going out to the air. If you run 8-9lbs you should be in good shape for some decent hp but that will depend on your fuel injectors, fuel pump and delivery, last but not least your compression.

the show was easy now we are going to make it go. I know that I can make more power and this is the fun part.

That header pipe is waaay too small. Velocity is not a concern unless it is choked down (which yours is), the heat and pressure are the energy sources. the desire for the hot pressurized exhaust gas to expand and cool is what drives the turbine.

Open that bad boy up and you will be giggling.

what diameter do you thing I should go to? The headers are BB.

Mustangs are easy to make big HP numbers with. 550rwhp in a Mustang will put you solidly in the 10's in the 1/4 mile on slicks and a good suspension. Be leary of these cars what looks like a 5.0 (302) could easily be a stroker 347 or a 351 like I had pumped out to 410 with 650hp and no power adders (ie supercharger or nitrous). Now try to get a Mustang to handle and brake like a stock 911 and you're gonna spend big dollars. Heck just to get one to last at high revs like a 911 will cost some cash as well. Remember your 911 is never gonna be a straight line car, the fun is the whole combination of power, handling and braking. FWIW My little car weighs in around 2100 with me in it, I have lots of fun with guys in slightly modified Mustangs. I've got roughly the same rwhp of a stock 5.0 and 1000+ lbs less weight. My stripped drag car with a full cage and lots of heavy duty parts tipped the scales at 3200lbs.

I've got a printing press here at work, I wanna make a decal for the rear window that says "Sooner or later everyone has to turn..."

Guy's I've seen Oscar's car in person and let me tell you it's beautiful, get the "go" working right and it'll be a hell of a car.

Looks good Oscar.

Here is some math to make sense of the numbers. I looked in BA book and a USA 2.7L engine made 165Hp@5800rpm.

Assume turbo compressor is 75% efficient.
Assume your intercooler is 75% efficient.

By adding 4.3psi of boost, calculations show that the HP should increase to 208Hp at the crank.

You got 189Hp at the wheels. If you assume 12% losses, then your Hp at the crank is 189/0.88 = 214Hp. This 6Hp more than estimated. EFI probably has something to do with that.

So your dyno run correlates to theory somewhat. Now if you boost to 8psi theory says you should get 244Hp at the crank.

Note that the temperature of the air out of the compressor will be 54C higher due to compression and losses in compressor wheel. A 75% efficient intercooler would drop that temperature by 41C with an end result of only 14C higher engine intake temperature.

....and just for fun, if you boosted by 14psi, theory says you should get 300Hp at the crank;) Not sure how long that would last though.....

Cheers,

Oscar, I have seen that car. Have you had it long? I saw it for sale on ebay a while back. I liked it then and at that time it had efi and turbo. That was at least 2 years ago. Cool car and when it gets tuned? Cool.

must have been a different car. I have never tried to sell it. I just finished the EFI conversion last year. This is the first summer that I finally started driving it everyday. It is very dependable and runs real strong with Tony's kit

Hmm. Well good looking car. Have fun and build that boost.

So where should I start in regards to getting more boost. I am thinking of capping off the wastegate to see if I am blowing off boost there. Then I would make a new pipe to connect the headers to turbo...or go to the original exhaust that came whith the BAE which is the regular 911 exhaust.

Double check the mixture readings, they said you were lean and the LM-1 said you were rich. One was right and you really need to know which one.

go back to original BAE piping, or at least make the header the same size or larger than the bae piping. I have the stock BAE piping and have no problem hitting 8 psi boost.


Iffn I were you (and your glad I'm not) I would not cap off or disconnect the wastegate. Boost climbs real fast, faster than you can react.
I accidentally disabled the wastegate on my 914 turbo once, it buried the 18 psi guage I had and the pinging noise could be heard across the street.
No good, I was lucky I didn't break something.

well oscar I hope it works out. I will be running my car this week and using a widband o2 to help set everything. I hope to get 275 at 6-7 psi with my 3.0 and tonys efi kit . What do you guys think?? I won't intercool till I go more on the boost. In case you missed the picture here is as of now. Should be running monday evening and then tune at home for the week and then find someone local that knows mega squirt for tuning

here is the link to my project. if I can help let me know

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=291882&perpage=20&pagen umber=1

A stock 3 liter with no intercooler will prolly hit 250 hp at the crank at 6 psi and 91 octane. Maybe a little more depending on ambient temps.
If you can get it to 9 psi you will be in the 280+ range, but that will prolly require intercooling with pump premium gas. You can run it rich or back off the timing, but both of those things take away power as well as reduce the tendency to ping. You give up as much as you gain so all you end up doing is reducing the efficiency of the engine.
I figure anything above 6 or 7 psi requires a decent intercooler with the CR and gas we are running.
That's why I have stopped at 7 to 8 psi, I figure that's the safe limit with my setup.
Sure I could go richer or back off the timing, but the net gain would be minimal if at all.
As it is, 260 hp (guesstimated) feels like a million in an otherwise stock SC, well worth the money ($1200) and time.
Even if I have less power than that it doesn't matter, every time I give someone a ride and the boost hits in 2nd and 3rd all they can say is holy *****!
The car is fast enough to keep my attention and occaionally scare me. What more could you ask for from a CIS 3 liter that can be regularly driven on the street reliably and can be taken back to stock in a few hours?

sammy you never backed off your timing????? its still the stock setting?? just curious. Oh and I plan on running the same intercooler set up as oscar but I am running it both ways mainly for ease right now(don't want to cut up the engine lid right now, I want to drive it until winter)

5 degrees BTDC with 12.5 to one A//f ratio and between 6 and 8 psi depending on the weather and how hard I'm going to drive it.