Advice

[Esel Mann]

Hi Folks,

I have a situation which requires the sage advice of this board. Before anyone turns away thinking that this is another "bash" thread, it is not! You will not find names here. Instead I am in need of what is hopefully simple advice!!!!

I purchased a pair of fuchs (turbo 944 8X16's) from a certain establishment. I purchased them because I wanted 8"ers up front for improved track handling and I wanted specifically new never before used because I wonder about using older rims on the track.

When I made the purchase, it was under the agreement that they were A) factory forged originals and B) new, never before used. I paid $1550 for the pair plus shipping. I received them today. Upon inspection, I have discovered that they are in fact not new, but instead poorly refurbished used rims. I determined their state by observing A) a small scraped off piece off the outer portion of one rim, various scrapes and dings on the outer edges and insides, places where the paint is puddled or simply not present, and someone had engraved the letter "P" on the inside of each rim (as opposed to the factory where letters and numbers are stamped on the inside of the rims. I will forgo the pictures in the interest of brevity.

Of course I contacted the certain establishment to arrange for a prompt return. Unfortunately the owner is not in until Monday so if I do return them it will have to happen Monday at the earliest. It's going to suck big time to return these, as I've got a track event next Saturday at Sebring. I just got pilot sport cups on order for my 9" rears and what I thought were going to be 8" fronts. The certain establishment has no other rims of this size in stock either.

So the areas I need advice on are:

A) Do new, never before used, 944 turbo 8X16 fuchs rims still exist? That is outside of an occasional attic/barn find? If so where?

B) Being used, is there a danger associated with track use of used fuchs rims? I recall some concern with older fuchs rims holding up to the stress associated with lotsa tracking. Hence my desire for an all new never before used pair. Maybe I am being concerned over nothing?

C) I paid $1550 for the pair. What is the general going rate for a used pair (with scrapes, and poor paint)? I did a search but failed to see any hard numbers for such a pair. I did pay $1800 for a pair of 9X16's but those were brand spanking new baby! So my feeling is it is a number much less than $1550. Please, I am not interested in the least about trying to low-ball and get something for nothing. I'm interested in thoughts on a FAIR price.


Where am I going with this? Well I could be wrong but I'm begining to suspect that new never before used 944 turbo 8X16 fuchs rims no longer exist outside of say the occasional barn find. I have no idea why the certain establishment sold the rims as such. If it looks like the general concensus is that there is minimal danger in using them on the track, perhaps a possible solution is to simply renegotiate with a fair price for the poorly refurbished pair instead of returning them. Afterall, if I return them, I will still be in the same boat in that I will be searching from a pool of used rims.


While it certainly sucks receiving used poorly refurbished rims all the while expecting to receive new never before used rims, I am hopeful that with the advice from this board, I can turn this unfortunate event into a more happy experience.

Best Regards,
Carlton

[cbeers]

my opinion is:

$700-1000 for a pair of the 951 8s. For $1k, they'd better be in great condition.

I have seen less than $700, but those have been few and far between and often have issues.

Hope this helps.

BTW, if you search the classifieds using "951 fuchs 8x16" you will get a lot of threads

-Chris

[JeremyD]

I paid 600 for my pair of 8 x 16 951 fuchs - but one had to be straightened

[Jack Olsen]

I'm not clear on how you know they're not new. Dings and manufacturing irregularities are going to appear in a lot of new (but warehoused) stock.

At that price, and because the wheels are going to be tracked, my biggest concern would be what is the manufacturing date code on the back of the wheels is.

And I don't mean for this to sound glib, at all, but after the first lap, all Fuchs you see on the track are used Fuchs. The vast majority of the ones in use out there are 20-30 years old. As a rule, Fuchs hold up very well. When cracks do form, they're usually easy to spot.

But again, you paid a lot for these. You should know exactly how old they are.

[nigel911]

If you're positive they aren't new, I'd be pissed.

Some rough looking Fuchs out there.

[nigel911]

Agree with Jack though, if you are tracking them it's more important they are true rather than new...

[Goth]

If this establishment has a busy shipping department as apposed to a small owner/operator business; it may be just a mix up in the warehouse. I'd try to wait until you talk to the guy before getting too pissed.

I've seen & received some pretty screwed up orders due to mix ups at packing/shipping stage.

PS: If it did get mixed up, their may be someone out their, who paid for used and got new! Hmmm? Are you out there? Huh?

[Esel Mann]

Guys thanks for the replies!!!

I did some more fact finding on these rims. First I brought them to my mechanic for a second opinion as to their "newness" and trackability. He concluded that they were refurbished used as opposed to new and unused. One has a date code stamped of "1286" and the other (oddly) of "1986". He was uncertain to them being OEM because as he pointed out that of all the OEM fuchs rims he's come across over the years, the part number is always forged in with the rim. These rims have a couple of squares where a portion of the rim part number is stamped. Also, there is a triangle with a funny design and the letter "D". On these rims that I have the triangle and "D" exist but no funny design.

He also pointed out that one of the rims has the part number 951.362.115, even though it dimensionally checks out equivalent to a 951.362.117? The "5" was one of the numbers which was stamped as opposed to forged into the rim. Interestingly too, the hole for the valve stem for one of the rims is flush while the other is tapered a bit.

I also weighed each rim. They each were 16lbs as one would expect for a 951.362.117 type rim. I have no idea what a fake fuch of thus type would weigh however I've a hunch that it wouldn't weigh exactly the same as an authentic.

So here's yet another question to the fuchs gurus out there. Did fuchs or an approved second source ever make forged fuchs for the aftermarket in the mid to late 80's? This would perhaps explain the discrepency with stamping of a portion of the part number and the missing funny design within the triangle?

[Jack Olsen]

Can you post pictures of the stamped information on the rears?

[Esel Mann]

Will do. My digital camera is having issues with clearity when zooming in so I need to play with it a bit.

[Wil Ferch]

There should be a "fox's head" clearly shown...and the "funny" triangle should be a stylized P and a D inside the traingle..indicating a Porsche part.

Maybe someone can dig up pics from the ad section of Pelican and post for reference? I can't do that.

- Wil

EDIT...at least here's a link showing the part number , the triangle and the alloy used, AS 1062 --> FS 16x7 and 16x8 930 fuchs

more-->Fuch'd at Hershey?

I've seen the "inch width" both as recessed and raised stamp

[jevvy]

Hi Guys

Just recently found some 16x8's for the front of mine, heres some pics of the inside before I sprayed them:



I have more photos if they would be of use...just shout.

Heres them fitted with a 205 tyre(she's a bit high + was empty of fuel):


I bought 7's too and they had a 115 part number - have you checked if they are 7 or 8 inches wide yet(just re-read yr post you state you have checked then)? Good luck getting it resolved.

[Esel Mann]

Ok, I was able to get some photos of the areas of interest.

First, thank you all again for taking the time to assist me in finding out which way is up!!!

In the pictures, I point out things which were different from my 6", 7", and 9" rims. Your ideas on the authenticity of these differences is again much appreciated!!!

The following photos show A) the part number area for both 8" rims, B) the date code area of the .117 rim, and C) the size info for both rims.

[Wil Ferch]

The 33 is actually a 23 that "slipped" down as the guy hit the wheel with the forging blank.... look again..the "2" is under the "T".

The raised sections should not be a concern..it can be a "5" for a 951 wheel or it can be a "1" for a 911 wheel....the other post shows this too.

The crude w]engraved "P" is a mystery...... former owner "Paul's" wheel maybe?...before it was sold as "new" ?....just kidding...don't know.

Can't offer coments on the other items.

Maybe send pics to Fuchs ( factory) in Germany for "opinion" ?

- Wil

[Early_S_Man]

The engraved 'p' isn't a factory mark!

The reason the last two digits of the part number are stamped rather than forged is that those two digits pertain to finish applied ... and that can't be determined at time of forging!!!

Those 8 x 16s were available in different colors ...