Another Newbie Question, No Start

[4BYR]

I just purchased an '83 911 and am so far pretty perplexed. I have read all of the threads and have done several things to try to get this beast to start to no avail. Aside from spending $ 600 with an independent P mechanic it is still DOA. He stated that the PO made a mess of things. I think he just didn't know what he was doing after 5 hours of labor. He had to blame it on something. Here we go... The car will not start unless pushed. The battery is new and the voltage is over 12.6. I have other batteries and these were just as good but did not start the car. All of the grounds have been scrubbed clean everywhere including the adding of another from the frame to the transmission. I installed a new hi-torque starter and this didn't help it turn over. The fuel pump runs and I get a click. I have cleaned just about everything and still nothing. I am frustrated. When the car is running the output voltage is 13.8 thereabouts. I don't want to see my car sitting without some enjoyment. I am a novice P mechanic and need things straight. There is an older clifford alarm on it and it will be replaced as soon as I can get a door key made to fit it. The PO must have replaced the ignition at some time in the past and never re-keyed the doors. It is important to get this running so I can replace the alarm. If I ran a lead of appropriate diameter from the keyed yellow wire from the ignition to the starter would this fix the problem? Should I also replace the hot wire from the battery to the starter? There are two yellow wires to the starter and one black and one red both 10 Awg or larger. Where do all of these wires originate? Which do I bypass or augment. Do I check them all with my digital multimeter to verify voltage or is this not a good test. Should it be amps that I am testing for or test for ground.
Sorry for the rambling but I want to drive my car.

Thanks,

[javadog]

Rich,

The first thing I would do is carefully remove the Clifford alarm and repair any damage to the car's wiring that was caused by the installation of the alarm.

I'd also find a new mechanic. There has to be nearly a zillion good ones in California.


JR

[Walter_Middie]

Rich,

I have recently had starting issues, and I found the attached Tech Article very helpful. It is for a 914, but the procedures are the same. If you can follow it, you will find your problem:

http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/mult_starter_diag/mult_starter_diag.htm

[Gunter]

There are two yellow wires to the starter and one black and one red both 10 Awg or larger. Where do all of these wires originate? Which do I bypass or augment?
Black = Alternator
Red = Battery (Both are on the same +post. With ignition ON, you should see 12V there)
Yellow = From ignition switch (To activate Solenoid when turning key to start)
On the same post is another wire for the timer (Left chain cover) The timer controls the CSV (Cold Start Valve) when cranking.
You can bridge the starter: Gears in neutral, ignition ON, Remove Yellow wire on Solenoid, Short heavy wire with Aligator clips on the Black/Red starter post, and touch the spade on the Solenoid where the Yellow wire normally connects: The starter should turn and the engine starts.
Expect a small spark and noise; don't get startled and make sure the car is lifted securely.
Old Cliffords are a PITA; I disconnected mine.
Does your Clifford have the additional Twin-Relays for Starter and Pump?
You would find them close to the fuse box in front.

[4BYR]

Thank you for the help.

My Clifford does have the twin relays. What is the best way to disconnect? I want to get the starting feature fixed before moving on to this for fear of complicating the processes.

To fix the issues is it best to replace the hot red wire from the battery? How do I test this wire to determine if is good? Is it best just to jump it direct from the battery to see if this is the culprit? Does this wire go anywhere else other than to the starter from the battery? Will just a simple test of the voltage do? Is it always hot? I have a digital multimeter. Is the test for resistance, volts or amps? Does this red wire have a relay or is it fused somewhere?

The yellow wire from the ignition has been tampered with. It has several splices in it from the PO and is not very long at the ignition end. Does this yellow wire go through a relay or fuse somewhere before connecting to the starter? Should I replace the wire altogether? Is this easy enough or have an extreme difficulty factor? I do hear a buzz at the fuel pump and a click that indicates the starter wants to engage but...

Is there a test for the cold start valve and wire? Would this cause the starter to not energize?

I will try your bridging methods to get it started after safely securing it so I can get it moved.

Thanks

[Walter_Middie]

How do I test this wire to determine if is good? Is it best just to jump it direct from the battery to see if this is the culprit? Does this wire go anywhere else other than to the starter from the battery? Will just a simple test of the voltage do? Is it always hot?

The procedure that I sent you will answer all these questions, but to help get you started (no pun intended)....The big red wire goes straight from the battery to the starter - no interruptions, no fuses. Test this with a volt meter - it should read the same voltage as your battery (the above procedure has a better test).

You say the PO has played around with the yellow wire - That is where I would start looking. When you turn the key to the start position, the yellow wire should be energized (+12 volts). But you say you hear a click - so maybe the yellow wire is OK. Is the ground wire from the transmission to the chassis still in good shape - it is usually located at the front of the transmission, down by the starter.

[Por_sha911]

I'll go one step farther than JR: if you were charged $600 for 5 hours and the car doesn't work that qualifies for "crook" rather than just a bad mechanic.

[4BYR]

I will be reviewing and going through the suggestions in the morning hopefully I find this gremlin by checking the voltages.

The grounds are good I do know that. I have gone through them and added an additional one from the trans to the chassis.

We'll see what tomorrow brings. Thank you all for your kind support of this rookie!

[ianc]

I know this is not your plan, but if it were me, I would begin by removing the Clifford. I don't know much about them, but it may be possible that they tie into the starting circuit in some way that is causing your problem. Carefully rip that baby out and throw it on the trash heap, then grab the wiring diagrams and go through each wire of the starting circuit one by one and you'll find the problem. You don't need the added complications of the alarm in there to confuse things. HTH,

ianc

[MotoSook]

I had a Clifford alarm in my '76 also. I must have removed about 5 pounds of wire and crap. The alram system is fairly simple and can be removed in an afternoon. You'll have to be patient and a contortionist to get under the steering column to see everything. Once you are under there you will see all the non-factory wires. Start removing them. You'll see where they cut the wires and solder-spliced int he alarm wires and relays.

Just connect them. The ends of the cut factory wires will be close to one another. Solder them and heat shrine over the solder.

It's time consuming, but you will get rid of a lot of future headaches.

Get rid of that stuff.

[4BYR]

Thank all of you for all of your directions and assistance.

I can't believe the BS I went through to find the problem. Do yourself a favor if you are in Orange County, Ca. DO NOT USE STEVE'S INDEPENDENT PORSCHE! After I found the problem (after he charged me $ 600 to not find it), he wanted another $ 200 to replace the hot battery wire by drilling through the car at it's base and running it under the carpet through to the starter. Man, what a generous guy... It turns out that the new high torque starter didn't fix the problem. The actual problem was worth $ 1.69 at Kragen. The + battery lead had a next to invisible layer of oxide on the stock crimp lead that did not allow the full transfer of electricity to the starter. The lead was tested to make sure it was not grounded and that there wasn't a voltage drop! All was OK it seemed! However the amperage was the issue! There wasn't enough contact at the crimp! I found this by leaving the stock battery as connected (because it had enough contact to run auxiliary stuff and power the yellow wire) and hooked another battery direct to the + on the starter and ground to the engine! It started right up! Though I do have an issue with the new high torque starter staying engaged after starting. This is another thread search to determine the fix.

This newbie says thanks to all with special thanks to Gunter and Walter for their easy mild mannered direction.

[Gunter]

With the car securely lifted, start it normally.
Then go underneath and pull off the yellow wire on the solenoid. (That's the yellow coming from the ignition switch)
The solenoid should deactivate and the starter disengage.
If it doesn't, the starter may be at fault.
Most likely though, there is Voltage at the yellow wire even after you release the ignition key from the starter position due to some splicing of wires from the alarm, or??
Try this: Turn the ignition switch to "Ignition". (Not start)
If there is unwanted Voltage at the yellow wire, you should hear the solenoid click.
Depending on the problem, unwanted Voltage may only appear after the engine starts.
By pulling off the yellow wire while running, you can narrow down the problem.
It sounds like you need to get the correct schematic for your year and disconnect the wires spliced in by the PO. Consider replacing the electrical portion of the ignition switch; do a search for this here for the procedure.

[Walter_Middie]

Rich,

Congratulations on finding this problem. Sometimes these things just aren't that easy to find (just ask the mechanic at STEVE'S INDEPENDENT PORSCHE!). You just have to go about it in a logical step-by-step procedure. Great job!

[4BYR]

Evidently the new Hi-Torque starter was too long and stayed engaged on the flywheel. The salesman indicated it was the same as what the host sold and is obviously not. I removed the new one and will be returning the Hi torque for replacement.

Thanks to all,