Seine shifter gate question

Deschodt · 07-27-2006, 12:27 PM

I've got one installed in my car by my mechanic while he was doing bushings, he welded the bit that they recommend to be welded too...

But, it does not quite do what I thought it did. It definitely prevents 5th->reverse pretty well and also 5th is definitely spring loaded now, but I thought it made the 3-4 plane as the "default" axis, it does not.

The shifter is still sloppy between the 1-2 and 3-4 axis/plane! Maybe he misread the directions or mis-installed ? Isn't it supposed to default the shifter to 3-4 only and spring load on each side of that plane (1-2 as well as 5th ?) Either way, not bad for the money but not as good as new bushings - those made a huge difference on my tired 915!

If 1-2 are supposed to be spring loaded, what did he potentially mess up ? Anybody else with a seine gate, please feel free to speak up ;-) thanks ! Maybe it's just an adjustment thing ?

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DW SD · 07-27-2006, 12:42 PM

It is supposed to default your shifter to the 3-neutral - 4 plane, yes.

It has no effect on the 5 - reverse plane. The factory reverse lockout remains.

Sounds like he didn't install the spring mechanism which pushes the 1 - 2 plane towards neutral, which is a key ingredient of the product. The factory provides a similar mechanism to guide you away from the 5 & reverse plane.

I'm sure Sherwood will weigh in. It has been 18 months since I did mine, so I may not be remembering properly, but I think I remember.

Doug

Pele911 · Pele911's Garage

As far as I know the seine system is supposed to operate as a gate shifter by hooking 1st, 2nd, and 5th with those tabs and return spring to 3/4 plane. Sounds like yours is installed correctly. I dont own one but I have driven with it and I recommend either the Renshift or the Wevo shifter.

Wevo Shifter or Rennshift

Par911 · 07-27-2006, 12:49 PM

It might be that your shift coupler needs to be adjusted. I had to adjust my coupler 2 or 3 times before I got it to where it felt just right. Now, I couldn't imagine driving a 915 without a Seine, or something equivalent .

Zeke · 07-27-2006, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Deschodt
Isn't it supposed to default the shifter to 3-4 only and spring load on each side of that plane (1-2 as well as 5th ?) ]

If 1-2 are supposed to be spring loaded, what did he potentially mess up ? Anybody else with a seine gate, please feel free to speak up ;-) thanks ! Maybe it's just an adjustment thing ?

Not an adjustment thing. The factory did the springs for you, as Doug said, on the 1-2 side. I think you're gonna have to take it apart and see what's not there.

Deschodt · 07-27-2006, 12:52 PM

My shift coupler ? I don't understand.. I have all gears, just like before, but instead of 1-2 and 5 being spring loaded, only 5 is... I'm gonn ahave to dig into it, but he kept the manual ;-)

Zeke · 07-27-2006, 01:03 PM

Part no. 7 (which has to be there or nothing will work) is replaced by a longer one and needs to still go thru part no. 6, which has the factory springs on it. I'll bet that's where your problem is.

Deschodt · 07-27-2006, 02:32 PM

Thanks guys...

I looked tonight and what I see puzzles me...
take a look, if you would:

This is neutral - see the gap between the rod and the spring thingie - bottom of the picture...

Fifth gear: Nothing special, apparently the springs in the tower (not too visible here but highlighted in red) springload when you go to 5th, and they work fine !

Now what I think is the cause: This is 1st or 2nd gear... See how the spring thingie barely touches the Rod (marked R) at full deflection ? Shouldn't the spring thingie reach much lower and block upwards motion of the rod that sticks through the tower ? That would make sense to me - and provide spring resistance I think - but it does not seem adjustable.

Or, should the red tab have been mounted lower or upside down, same deal - to reach lower, to apply pressure on the rod and spring load 1-2 ?

Help !! ;-) Thanks !

klaucke · 07-27-2006, 02:54 PM

Definately installed incorrectly, but looks like it is easily fixed. There should not be a spring above the red plate on the bolt, only below.

See this picture from www.seinesystems.com:

911pcars · 07-27-2006, 03:28 PM

Greg,
Assuming you have a standard shifter (not factory short shifter), use only the longer of the two springs (red paint code) between the bolt head and the tension block as shown below. Only one spring is needed. The shorter spring is for a factory short shift kit.

Once you have this spring arrangement, rotate the tension bolt nut so there's approx. 1/16" clearance between the bolt head and the pivot pin. Your photo shows excessive space.

As a suggestion, I'd ovalize or enlarge the mounting holes to reposition the tension block assembly so the bolt head aligns with the pivot pin. In addition, the install would look cleaner if you changed the orientation of the button head bolts and nuts. The fasteners you have seem longer than the ones provided. Installing the M5 lock nuts inside the housing is a tight fit. To install, I attach each nut onto the end of a length of masking tape and use that to reach into the space to start the threads.

BTW, the unit shown in the photo has the reverse lock pawl removed for use with a 901 gearbox. Otherwise, it's the same setup for a 915.

Hope this helps,
Sherwood
Seine Systems

Deschodt · 07-27-2006, 04:07 PM

Aaaaaaahhhhhhh !!!

Thanks Sherwood! That helps ! Now I wonder why I got my mechanic to do this for me... he's good at what he knows, but in this case I could have read instructions better, I think ;-)

Off to the car, triyng not to get springs in my eye ! ;-)

911pcars · 07-27-2006, 04:19 PM

No problem Greg. Let me know if you need further assistance. Don't forget to add lube between all rubbing parts.

Sherwood

Deschodt · 05:07 PM

Just did it ! It works great now ! Tension on both sides... Victory !!! Now the product is twice as good as before ;-)

The sprung part thru the tension block does feel a little "sticky" at times, is that where you advise to lubricate?
I reduced the clearance by turning the bolt so that the shifter has the tiniest bit of play in neutral, but no more, or I can hear the "ding" when they contact...

I've just noticed that sometimes it's harder to get in 4th but since all other gears are OK, that probably has nothing to do with this install - it's an old gearbox and a new car to me, or it could be that I still need to realign the tension block to be perfectly spot on... But for now, I am happy, it works just as advertised with one spring only !

It's all on your site, too, it'sa great product - even my mechanic who screwed it up a bit said it was ingenious, I apologize for trusting the install to someone else and wondering if something was wrong when you have all those clear explanations on the site !

Zeke · 07-27-2006, 05:16 PM

Glad you got it worked out. Sherwood is always very helpful. I guess I was wrong about the vertical springs. I have a shifter set up for a 901 and everything is backwards.

911pcars · 07-27-2006, 05:25 PM

"The sprung part thru the tension block does feel a little "sticky" at times, is that where you advise to lubricate?"

Greg,
It could be the slight misalignment I see between the pivot pin and the axis of the tension block assembly/tension bolt. If not aligned, as the pivot pin rises upward against the tension bolt (N>1/2), a side load develops on the bolt as it compresses the spring. As the bolt slides upward, some threads are forced against the ID of the tension block sleeve. Align the parts, then add some lube on the bolt shank to reduce friction and excessive wear (recommend synthetic grease).

We recommend adjusting the shift coupler to make sure the gearbox shifts correctly BEFORE installing the Gate Shift kit. If you have to adjust the shift coupler after the kit is installed, compress the spring fully with the nut to eliminate spring tension from any adjustment procedure.

Sherwood

Deschodt · 04:07 PM

Ok, new issue (sorry about that). I went at it tonight to reposition the tension block, which works fine and is aligned now. But I saw something weird...

The C shaped gold piece sitting on top of the tower (seen a few posts above) was starting to "lift" on the left side. Hard to explain: It looks like when the shifter is in 1st or 2nd, the spring is so strong that it pulls back on the shift lever towards neutral, and the welded tab on the shifter touches and pulls on the tab on the gold C plate, towards neutral, thereby bending the whole C shaped thing and causing a gap to form on the left side... ????
What kind of alignment issue is this now ? Is it the tabs on the shifter that I should bend more or....

The whole thing shifts fine, but it looked bad, like it was going to bend some more and cause a problem... I hammered it back straight, but that gold C shaped piece looks way too easy to bend... Is my shifter too strong ?? Should I unbolt the 2 top bolts and shift the C shaped assembly to the right a bit?

Zeke · 04:48 PM

You made me go out and look in my box of shifters since I was wrong the 1st time, LOL. The "C shaped thing" sits on top of plate (part no. 11), which is a guide for the no. 6 part I mentioned above. The springs inside (no. 9) do push up against it, but mine doesn't come close to bending. There are ample holes in the C shape thing for adjustment allowing the no. 6 piece to move up and down when you're going into the 5-rev plane.

Shoot us another pic so the "Gates" don't block the view of the plate below.

Just re-read your description of the problem. I guess I'm of no help again, because your problem seems to still be the outboard spring. I don't see how it could be that strong.

khamul02 · khamul02's Garage

Dude, I never changed the oil in a car before I owned my sc & I installed that kit (following the instructions) without the slightest problem. I guess what I'm getting at is looking at your pictures I question your wrench's attention to detail

Deschodt · 07-28-2006, 05:06 PM

Well, it seems allright for now, but I can almost bend the C shaped thing by hand !!! If I mimic my shifter and pull on the C-thing tab by hand, I can make it distort a bit ! Oh $%#%... I'll leave it on for a few days and if it bends again I'll take pictures and remove it...

I shifted without one for 10 years, seems like a good idea but something went wrong I guess ;-) Note: I am not blaming the product (Sherwood is probably cursing me by now)- it's probably the original install that screwed things up... I think the tabs welded on the shift lever are not perfectly parallel to the tabs on the C-piece, they're slightly angled, the welder might have screwed that up - but I can see how that's easy to do ! We'll see...

911pcars · 07-28-2006, 05:22 PM

Greg,
The GS kit springs were recently upgraded slightly (+10 lbs); not sure how old yours is, but they're still softer than the factory springs for 5th/rev. The spring tension is not nearly enough to bend the steel tabs. Not sure what the problem is.

Shoot a couple of pics of the carrier plate (the top plate with the tabs) on the shifter. I'll see if I can diagnose via long distance.

Sherwood