996 Race cars...where do they go

Shaun @ Tru6 · 08-01-2006, 08:06 AM

I was just reading the current issue of Excellence and noticed a few 996's mixed with 997's in some track shots.

If not already, in a year or two these cars will be uncompetitive against newer 911's, so where will these cars go then as well-heeled (and toed) owners get newer, faster equipment?

will they be 20 - 30 years in the future barn finds?

or just dumped on eBay for street & DE cars?

911teo · 08-01-2006, 08:59 AM

Good questions....
If you check the rennlist board you occasionally see the cup cars from the previous season avaliable for DEs or PCA runs.
But how many of these really make it to the end? I mean after 2 seasons I think there is little salvageable and most cars are beat up.

The nicest examples are few and command a premium.

Right now (depensing on the specs [cup, RSRs etc]) they go between 70-100k.

Facey · Facey's Garage

i'd expect most of them get parted out

the engine is worth way more out of them then in them
as are the brake, and expensive suspension setups.

then you have a fully seem welded and caged body...probbaly with some neat body work......extra cooling etc.....

they don;t have VIN's on them do they? (aka even if u put all the street stuff it wouldn;t fly)

that what i see happening

jester911 · jester911's Garage

I just saw this 2004 996GT3RS at Road Atlanta running in an
SCCA race in the GT class. It was a beautiful race car.

Elombard · 08-01-2006, 09:28 AM

I see them pop up like Matteo says, also in the SCCA mags and in Autoweek.

I have often wondered about turning one back into a street car. I dont think it would be possible. I think alot of times they dont have full vins because they never had air bags and stuff and the motors would not pass emissions. Plus they are expensive.

If you could get one and take parts off and add to a cheap 99 that might be the way to go. I have wondered also about calling the big race teams and seeing if they have any throw aways that would still be fine for my use. Things like wheels that had been "lifed" and sway bars, struts and shocks that are last years. Heim joint control arms and stuff they they have lifed.

I also wonder if you could get a high hours race motor that would be fine for quite a while? use lower revs. Probably pass emissions in many places if they did not do a visual or you could even put high flow cats and of course mufflers and then it would be legal (not technically) but it would meet the intent and I could sleep on that. I dont know the FI and the overlap on the cams might be a problem. Plus the compression ratio would probably require race gas which would be fun for about 1 tank ful!

TRE Cup · TRE Cup's Garage

the cars get turned into POC and PCA racers. PCA Club racing is huge in this country, so much so that there are classes for the factory cup cars.

These cars are not cheap to run; current pricing on engine rebuilds (needed every 40-50 hours) is in the 15k-20k range providing nothing is broken. Speed costs money !

911teo · 08-01-2006, 10:05 AM

On Rennlist right now you can find:

1x 06 997 GT3 cup EUR 135,500
1x 01 996 GT3 cup $89,900
1x 99 996 GT3 cup $95,000
1x 96 993 RSR $62,500

The price depends on the engine conditions (hours) and spares. Converting n RSR to street is prohibitive, but a Cup car is easier.

Shaun @ Tru6 · 08-01-2006, 10:12 AM

Very cool, thanks guys.

I like Erik's idea a lot. If teams would play, it would certainly make a fun Parts business if food and shelter weren't concerns.

Cory M · 08-01-2006, 10:20 AM

There are plenty of clubs to race old cup cars in, I think they have even been added to HSR vintage racing recently.

Kevin Stewart · 08-01-2006, 10:47 AM

It is a little out there to think a race cars life only has an expected race life of two years then parted out, they are probably still turning laps as fast or faster as when they started, new technolgy comes in and obsoletes the old car. as many here have said there are a ton of other classes that they can run in. Personaly i would like to convert a Daytona prototype for the street

,,,, Kevin

DaveE · 08-01-2006, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kevin Stewart
.... Personaly i would like to convert a Daytona prototype for the street,,,, Kevin

Aren't there enough ugly street cars?

boba · 08-01-2006, 12:35 PM

Most of these cars go to club racers, lots in PCA, POC, etc. Even tho these cars are seam welded after 2 seasons they are typically 1 sec. per lap slower than a new tub. Even after total referbishment they are never a quick as a new tub. Most cars are sold with spares so this limits the parts for teams to sell. Most parts at the end of their useful life when discarded and no longer safe. These cars are so stiff that after 30min. on the street you would be lucky to have any teeth let alone fillings.

jluetjen · jluetjen's Garage

I'm sure that they'll go the same places as all the other "old" race cars...

- Speed GT (and the upcoming SCCA club class aligned with it)
- Porsche Club Racing and DE's
- European National Level Racing (which often allow cars a longer eligibility then the International classes do)
- SCCA GT2 (for the non-RS's)
- Vintage Racing

I'm not sure that I buy it that after 2 seasons they're a second slower then a new tub. This may be true due to updates on the chassis (Aero, suspension, weight reduction and re-allocation, etc), but I'm not aware that the chassis is just "used up". It's not like these are pop-riveted tubs, they're basically a stiffened chassis with a full tube cage inside. NASCAR stock cars are often just reskinned and used for season after season (until next year at least). Why would it be any different with these cars. Toad Hall basically kept re-skinning a 1970's or 1980's 911 tub for years and was still running up in the field in Speed GT in the last year that the Air Cooled cars were eligible. Besides, what's a second a lap in an amateur race, where the driver accounts for far more of the speed then the car in most cases.

As far as the engines go, I'll tell you a dirty little secret. A lot of people limit the rev's or de-tune them some and they last quite a bit longer then they would as built-to-the-limit engines. Even in SCCA Run-Off's competition, most people use a "mule" engine for the whole season and then put the hot engine in only for the Run-Off's. Even de-tuned, these engines are strong enough to be interesting for most people.

These cars will be running on track for many years to come, just like earlier 911's. I'd be surprised to see them "dumped" on ebay or being sold for any huge discount. How many 993 Cup cars do you see lying around unused? Too many people would love to own them.

boba · 08-01-2006, 02:29 PM

The 1 second a lap was based on testing by teams and Grand Am when they were doing the economic evaluation on unibody vs. tube frame and was part of the justification for the Prep II (tube frame) cars. The NASCAR cars are all tubeframe. Even tho the cars are seam welded and have the cage well intergrated into the chassis the sheet metal of the tub does start to flex over time.
This would not be noticed by most club racers but it is noticed at the top of the food chain.

rfn026 · 08-01-2006, 02:50 PM

You better get in line, and have a checkbook ready, to buy ANY use Porsche racer. The old Cup cars are going to IMSA and PCA. Then the new owners spend a fortune on them.

If you want to buy a used race car start saving your money for the old Nextel Cup cars. Once the Car of Tomorrow comes on line there are going to be hundreds of Nextel Cup cars for sale. Right now you can get a nice cup car for around $35,000. Jeff Gordon's cars will cost you more though.

Porsche speed for half the money.

Richard

Elombard · 08-01-2006, 04:40 PM

I would rather poke a large needle in my neck than race a nascar even for fun. There are many other race car options for $35K that I would choose, even if they are a little slower. They just look stupid.

Kevin Stewart · 08-01-2006, 04:42 PM

DaveE why would you think a prototype is ugly? way cooler than any street car, Kevin

DaveE · 08-02-2006, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kevin Stewart
DaveE why would you think a prototype is ugly? way cooler than any street car, Kevin

Maybe it's just my senses but I don't like the looks of any of the DP cars. Admittedly the Crawfords are the most attractive of this homely bunch but I think they are ugly compared to great sports/racing or prototype coupes of the past. I'm happier in a 911 coupe. My opinion of course.

Wayne 962 · Wayne 962's Garage

Just about everything mentioned here is true. The older race cars are indeed in demand by club racers. You wouldn't really want to make one road worthy, and it isn't worth it either. Porsche GT3 cars are about $75-80K these days for the street version...

-Wayne

Bill Verburg · Bill Verburg's Garage

None of the Cup cars can ever be registered on the street. That is part of the legal strictures involved in their import.

At the time of import a declaration is made street, which must meet EPA and DOT code prior to initial registration

or

race only which may never be registered for road use

The decision is irrevocable.