Ignition Upgrade

I have a 1976 911S 2.7L CIS. I'm looking to upgrade my ignition system. Anyone have any information regarding Permatune and MSD systems. I have heard Permatune mentioned more on this bullentin board than the MSD. Also for anyone who has installed a Permatune, did you opt for the model that has the coil internal to the system, or the one that requires an external coil. If you get the one with the internal coil, do you need to buy a whole new system if the coil goes bad. Any input or experience with either of these systems would be a great help. In regards to the posts a few back, Warren has always added input to almost every question that I have posted on this site. Thanks for the help, and I'd like to see a pic of the car also.

When I bought my Perma-Tune unit in '80 there were only two models, the OEM 911 model for '69-'77s, and the 'Universal' model for retrofitting point & coil ignitions, and I was looking for a spare, just in case something went wrong with the Bosch CDI-unit. I installed it and used it for over a month; there was no noticeable difference in power, response, or any thing else about the engine. So, if you are intrigued by all of the claims for more power by changing sparkplugs or ignition units ... I have serious doubts they are anything but advertising hype!

The Perma-Tune URL is: http://www.perma-tune.com/

I think you will find that the EXACT same claims are made for the 911 and 911SC models as for the point-coil ignition system upgrades, and I do not happen to believe them! A claim of three times the 'power' or 'energy' might be true if replacing point-coil systems (questionable, in my opinion) but I don't buy the claim over the existing Bosch CDI-unit in any '69-'83 911 !!! I am not saying the Perma-Tune is a bad product, just that their ad copywriters stretch the truth, a prevalent practice in the advertising world, as we all know!

As for the Perma-Tune units with the built-in coil, they seem overpriced to me. By QUITE a bit, I might add! For those kind of prices you can buy a 'regular' Perma-Tune and a 'Super-coil' or two to experiment with, and your old coil will still work fine with the old Bosch unit or your Perma-Tune, should the 'Super-coil' bite the dust, which I have heard they are prone to do! I suspect one of the best 'upgrades' for your '76 would be a brand-new distributor cap and a set of '69-'73 OEM sparkplug wires without the shielding. If you want to replace the plain, black neoprene wires with a 7 mm metal-core silicone wire, like I have done, that is fine, just don't expect any free hp, just reliable service!

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Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa

You can't beat the advise of EarlySMan but heres a slant on MSD.
I recently installed on on my 1966 911 with Webers and ss headers but otherwise stock 2.0 L.
When firing up the newly rebuilt engine, I checked the spark and found, much to my delight, a huge spark compared to normal. No performance results but it is one hell of a spark and the engine starts fantasticly!
I used a MSD 6AL and their fancy, looking, coil (8200 series). Very easy to hook up and check out.
FWIW,
Ernie

Thanks for the input. Basically the car seems to miss or sputter at high RPMS and I had read in past posts that an ignition upgrade may help. This occurs at around 4-5K RPM's, well below the point where the rev limiter cuts out the engine (6500RPM. At first I think that I will replace the distributor, rotor, coil, plugs and maybe the wires. I will probably go to an optical or magnet point system to get rid of the mechanical points that I still have. I looked at the distrubtor, rotor, and plugs and they seem to be okay. I have one follow up question regarding timing an engine. I removed the hose running to the vacuum advance on the distributor. I then started to time the engine and there are two sets of two marks each on the pulley. When I adjust the distributor, do I want the driver side or passenger side mark to line up to the set point mark. The two marks on the pulley are around 3/8" apart. I timed the engine with no advance dialed into the timing gun. Am I doing this operation properly?

Now that we know what the problem actually is ... forget about any 'upgrades' and just do a normal ignition TUNEUP!!! You may want to try some NGK plugs, or Bosch +4 , or whatever, but I strongly suggest that you do basic maintenance and quit dreaming about upgrading something which worked perfectly as it came from the factory!


I submit that you do not need to replace the coil or rotor (just clean the 'tip' with an ink eraser) ... and there is no need to worry about changing the points out to magnetic, optical, or anything else but a new set of BOSCH points set to factory specs (0.016" I believe) as they work just fine in my engine to 7500 rpm ... and it makes 25 or more hp than your engine! The wires on your engine are questionable at their age, and MAY be the source of your 'miss', but you may want to disassemble them, one at a time, discard the shielding braid, and replace the black neoprene wire with 7 mm silicone metal-cored wire (either copper or stainless steel is available) if all of the connectors are in good shape. You should test all of the sparkplug connectors with an Ohmmeter or multimeter to be sure none of the resistance elements are open (broken) ... they should measure around 3K Ohms (3000) and no corrosion should be present!

In short, just replace the cap, points, refurbish or replace the wires, and set the timing ... the marks on the pulley, starting with the last one on the left, if you have turned the engine manually over until three marks are to the right of the mark on the fan housing and the last mark is lined up: 5 degrees After TDC, 'Z1' or TDC, 30 degrees Before TDC, and 35 degrees Before TDC. Your 'basic' timing at 900 rpm idle is 5 degrees After TDC at the last 'mark' on the left, with no advance dialed in ... on your timing light and with the vacuum hose CONNECTED to the vacuum retard diaphram! With the vacuum hose disconnected BRIEFLY check the advance at 6000 rpm to make sure it is no more than 38 degrees Before TDC. Good Luck!

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Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa

[This message has been edited by Early_S_Man (edited 03-06-2000).]

I installed a Crane optical ignition system in my '75 a couple of months ago, and found that it was an easy install, relatively cheap, provides a REALLY strong spark, and (most importantly) gets rid of the points!

Just my $.02, but I did at the same time I replace the (factory 25 year old) ignition wires to provide a solid ignition setup that I could rule out as causing any problems. Worked out great!

Crane was selling them direct very inexpensively, and I know Pelican sells them as well.



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Matt Daniels
1975 911S
Providence, RI

Thanks for the timing information Warren. The Haynes manual that I have listed within chapter 3 to time the engine for years 1972-1975 to 5°ATDC at 900RPM +/- 50RPM and 32° to 38° BTDC at 6000RPM. It says to refer to chapter 11 for years 1976 and on. Then when I looked in chapter 11, it said for a 1977 [there was no 1976](Non California) to time the engine to TDC. I initially set the static timing to TDC and the engine idle was at 900 RPM. This time I did the static timing within the vacuum hose on and when I adjusted the distributor so that the pulley was at the 5°ATDC mark, the engine idle dropped to around 400-500 RPM which is low. From Warrens' input and a few other books that I looked at, the car is supposed to have a static timing set point of 5°ATDC at 850 to 950RPM. Now that I have set the timing properely should I now adjust the idle back up to 950RPM. It is obviously time for me to invest in a set of factory manuals.