unescesary brake job - Your opinions please!

[1982911sc]

I will try not to rant in this post, but I am sort of fuming.

I took my car in for the pre-drivers ed inspection at the one of the local pcar shops in the area a few weeks ago. They perform free tech inspections prior to the track days. They have always been a good shop to me. Well they get pretty busy on these days and sometimes have some of the local PCA guys assist in the inspections. Well long story short I did not pass the inspection because they indicated my brake pads were well worn and not track worthy. Needless to say I did not track the car and purchased the pads from our host.

Well tonight I went to tackle my first brake job, (jacking the front of the car up is a pain in the A$$!). Pull out the pads and they look almost as thick as the new ones! Maybe I dont know enough about this, take a look at the very poor pictures I took on my cell phone, even in these horrible pics you can get the idea. These look hardly worn to me! and they are worn very evenly!

One caviat, this is only one wheel, the left front, never even looked at another wheel after seeing this. Should I just throw the old ones back in and call it a night? Or since I went through the trouble should I at least put the new ones on...will have to do the other side then..which I have not started yet. Haven't pulled the backs yet either!

Anyone kind of P O'ed at the wasted time and money! Thoughts! Thanks!

[RaceProEngineer]

Well, if the other six pads are in the same condition / thickness, and THERE ARE NO CRACKS in the pads, someone guided you to an unncessary purchase, or at least one which was unnecessary right now.

The most unfortunate thing is that you missed a track event because of it. Depending on how much of an issue you wish to make - well, that's obviously up to you.

Driving your car on the track wears through pads like crazy, so you did not waste any money there. If it were us, we would take the old ones off, being careful to label each: Right-Front-Outer; Right-Front-Inner; Right-Rear-Outer; etc., and store them. Then carefully bed the new ones, getting them ready for the track. When these new ones start to really wear down, you have a nice set, already bedded, labeled, and ready to go. And, when you install the set you have stored, it's time to purchase another.

As a big side benefit, you will henceforth be able to VERIFY when you truly need new pads. Indeed, you will probably know it before any inspector tells you.

And if we thought highly of the shop where this occured, we would undoubtedly mention this episode TO THE OWNER ONLY, and certainly IN PRIVATE.

Ed LoPresti

[Todd Simpson]

Yeah, those pads look fine and can be used. Check the other pads to be sure they are worn a similar amount, then bring the new ones as spares...you'll need them.

If you keep going to the track you'll become familiar with checking pads, brake fluid level and tire pressures, several times a day. Even with pre-event tech and tech line at the track in the end it's your safety on the line...better to get good at this stuff on your own than rely on anyone else.

BTW, I went through new SC pads in my first 3 days at the track. These days with big brakes and a light car I'll get at least 20 days.

[Early_S_Man]

Well, it doesn't say much for the veracity of the shop's PPIs if those pads are supposed to be worn out!

I expect you will find the rears to be significantly more worn, though, as the 'M' pads on the rear usually wear at more than twice the rate of 'S' or 'A' caliper pads! If the rears were out of spec, it should have been noted!

[Oh Haha]

That's unfortunate as I know what shop you are talking about. They have been a lot of support for the local PCA. As suggestd, I would contact the owner in private and see what happened. Maybe they made a simple mistake. As Ed suggested, you still can use the new pads as spares.

[Dixie]

The bad part is that you missed a track day.

The good part is you now know how to change the pads, you now have a spare set of pads, and you can now determine if you have enough pad on your own.

With time I think you'll see you came out ahead.

[PEH]

Unfortunately brakes are an easy target for dealers and repair shops. My first encounter with this situation was with our BMW 325. About a week before some scheduled mantenance and warranty work I pulled the wheels to wash the endless brake dust off of both sides of the wheels. At that time I checked the brakes, not quite 50% worn. A week later I got a call from the dealer saying I needed brakes. I told them I would reschedule. I never went back to that dealer again.
PEH

[89911]

Explain to the group organizing your event what had happened and demand either your money back for the missed track day, or credit for any upcoming events. Maybe even credit for the pads that you bought but don't need. (You can always use them in the future though.) I've had my car teched dozens of times and its funny some of the strange things these "would be mechanics" come up with.

[bkreigsr]

our pre-tech usually recommends replacement if the pads look like they are down to one-half original thickness. you probably got a judgement call from a member/part-time tech inspector.

no such thing as wasted money on new pads.
they don't go bad, and when you do decide to install them, the thicker the pad, the less heat gets transferred to the rotors.
Bill K

[widgeon13]

In CT, PCA has members that are qualified to do pre tech inspections and sign the car off for a DE. These folks are usually very qualified to do this and you can go over the car with them and learn from the process. Most of the time they are also at the track the day you are there so if there are any questions they can be answered quickly. It's been a couple years since I have done a DE but I believe that is still the acceptable way for CT region as well as qualified shops. I never paid anyone to pre tech my car, I always used a member on the list that could do the sign off and was never failed at pre tech or the track.

Don't know if this is the way it is in other regions. Once you have done it once or twice you should be able to check your car over and make certain it is track ready before you go for the pre tech. We were also required to bleed the brakes no more than 30 days prior to DE date. I always checked my pads at that time. Boiling brake fluid can be as much of a problem as thin pads.

I'd go back and talk to the shop and find out what they objected to on the pads and show them your pics, if they don't give you a satisfactory answer, find some else for your shop jobs.

[JeremyD]

I do the tech inspection on my car before I take it to my wrench for him to sign off. Usually I ask him to specifically look at something or check the torque or wear on an item. When it comes to the track the only thing that I take for granted is that no one will look over the car with the same attention to detail that I will.

[1982911sc]

Thanks for all of your input! I have owned this 911 going on three years and my 912 prior to that. One lessoned learned is how does on get the best read on how much pad one has left accurately? It is truly pulling off the wheel and looking at the pad itself? Or can you use one of those little dental mirrors to check the remaining pad? What works best for you all?

[anthony]

Why did you have to miss the track day? You couldn't source pads locally and install them before the event? Pads only take a short amount of time to swap.

Why didn't the shop offer to install them on the spot? (I mean besides the fact that they aren't actually worn though you should check the other side because it's possible to have unevenly wearing pads.)

[911pcars]

Here's one explanation. The A caliper use the same brake pad profile as the S calipers. However, S caliper pads are much thicker. Your inspector may have mentally used the thickness of the S pads as a reference point and concluded your pads were about half worn.

Not sure of the pad specs for both, but you could probably find them on the parts pages, the archives or in several Porsche ref. manuals.

Sherwood

[2.7RACER]

911 Manual says 10mm pad thickness, 2mm wear limit. This for the front or rear pads.
With a 20.5mm thick rotor, minimum 19.1mm after machining, wear limit 18.5mm.
This from the Porsche 911 workshop manual page 541.
No mention of thicker pads, though I seem to remember something thicker.
A Parts catalog should have all the info. I don't have the correct one.

[dtw]

Strange. I wonder what the story is on that. When I bought my BMW sight-unseen, I had a well-recommended specialty shop do a PPI for me. They told me the front pads were completely gone, down to the sensors, and needed to be immediately replaced. This shop was well-aware that I was from out of state and would not be spending any money beyond the PPI with them. The seller threw in a set of new brake pads and a new wear sensor from the dealer, but I was concerned about my 700 mile drive home.

Had my own shop do another inspection to verify the original PPI...right off the bat they noticed the pads were virtually new...18k later I'm still driving on them. Freaking new pads, still sitting on the shelf in my garage.

[Early_S_Man]

1982911sc,

In my experience, no mirror required ... just your two eyeballs and good light. The pistons, pads, and rotor are visible through the top of the caliper, even with all of the retaining hardware in place. Dust coating everything may make discerning what exactly is pad material a bit difficult, but a bit of Windex and some Q-tips can make the picture more clear.

[cashflyer]

OMG..!!! You were riding on those pads?? You nearly DIED!!!

Like most owners of an older 911, I am a "car guy". I do a lot of my own wrenching, and the owner of the shop where I get my tech inspection done knows this. So, when the inspection is taking place he always allows me to follow along the process and he is sure to explain any unfavorable decisions.

You didn't need pads right then, but track days use them up quickly. Sometimes in just a few weekends, depending upon the track and your driving. So, although it was no reason to have missed a track day you will still eventually use them. And they don't eat no groceries.

[JTL]

I do almost all the 911 work but the Beamer just came from the stealer. A reputable shop gave me a list of things that needed fixing. Most of those things were known to me already. They called later to inform that the coolant expansion tank had a crack and was leaking. They didn't want me to have a bad day with the engine overheating etc. I decided to let them fix it because the wife would never catch the temp going up. Anyway, that fix cost $200 extra added to the already expensive service.
Now you guys have me wondering if that fix was legit?! In any event its time to get into wrenching on the beamer as well.

jt
-84 targa

[89911]

Maybe I didn't read your initial post entirely correct. I was assuming that they did this the day of the event and you had no other recourse. Brake pads are my biggest wear item in doing a DE. A rule of thumb I use is when the pad material is as thick as the metal backing plate, consider changing them for any extensive hard driving. The first 5mm of pad will wear linearly. The last 5mm will wear very fast due to lack of heat reservoir. One advantage of 930 brakes is you can continually cycle the pads, taking the worn fronts and placing in the rears and then adding new ones to the front.