Another 'It's in, but it wont start thread' (3.2 swap)
 

Car is a '72 T
Engine is a '86 3.2

I have 12V at the #6 pi on the DME relay and at the coil with the key on. Fuel pump wire from the DME is set to a switched 12v post on my fuse block so it runs with the key on. Black wire that goes to #5 on the DME relay is on the same fuse. I didn't bother connecting the tach yet, but I don't think I need that to start the car.

I think the DME is humming, but the car makes so much other noise with the key on that I can't tell for sure. Is it supposed to whine like a CD box? Its definitely not doing that, but I think i hear a low hum under the seat.

Im getting enough fuel circulation to help me find a small leak.

In an effort to be as clean as possible, I re-mapped the 14 pin 3.2 engine connector myself, deleted my rear fuse panel, and plugged the engine directly into the unmodified chassis harness, so thats probably where my issue is.

The engine isn't turning over and Im not getting a spark. When I turn the key to start the car, everything gets quiet.

Where should I start looking? Ive been through Marqsc's site a hundred times and I read Joe's, Don's, 1972T's, posts, etc, and I cant figure out what Im missing. Maybe, I just can't read, but either way, I need some help at this point. Any advice is appreciated.

TIA

I hear a click when I turn the key to start the car. Im guessing thats the DME relay, but there's no way i can tell if its coming from the box or the relay. How can I test the DME without access to a working car?

Sherman,
I should preface this by saying that i know exactly ***** about DME's.

By everything getting quiet, do you mean that the fuel pump and DME stop making noise when you turn the key from acc to start?

I would start with why the starter isnt going, cause you wont get any spark unless the motor is turning. Is it the same starter and solenoid you had before?

I know i'm gonna get bashed for this, but in college i used to start my jetta by jumping the current from the solenoid to the starter post with a screw driver. At least i knew it wasnt the starter and it helped me figure out that the wire from the ignition switch to soleniod had come apart at the fire wall.

Paul

Thanks, Paul!

When I turn the key to the start position, either the DME or the relay under the seat is clicks once and the fuel pump shuts off. Everything is quiet at that point.

My battery is an Odyssey PC680. I checked the voltage and thought it was good. Ive also to use a charger to start it and I get nothing.

Im sure my transmission ground strap is fine, but Im going to go double check that now after going through the 101.

Starter is a brand new Bosch OEM unit. I must have screwed something up installing it. It has a single lug terminal for the big cable and a male spade connector. My '72 had ringed connectors for everything so, I re-terminated the yellow wire and connected it to the spade. I also attached the red wire from the engine and the main starter wire to the lug. Its been so long since I pulled the original motor, that I honestly don't remember how it was hooked up before, but that seemed correct at the time.

Any thoughts? Does the starter sound like its installed correctly? Or should the red wire go to the spade with the yellow? Or do all three go to the main lug?

Thanks again for the help

Sherman if your getting the click from the DME relay when you turn the key, but no engine turning you must have an issue with the starter wire, first check the yellow wire in the 14 pin conector make sure this has voltage when you turn the key, then follow this back to the starter make sure that voltage is getting to the solonoid. If thats ok then it must be the main feed to the starter or the starter itself. Also make sure you have good enigne to chassy earth if the earths not good you wont get no starter action.

A charger wont provide the amps to make the starter turn.

Steve

By the sound of your description on how you wired up the starter its sound like you did it correctly, maybe a miss connection in the 14 pin connector?

Steve

You could try keeping the big red wire connected then use your charger to actuate the solonoid, but the -ve wire to the chassy then put the +ve wire to the spade connector on the starter this sould make the starter turn if the red wire is connected to the battery and the earth is good. If not it could be a dodgy starter.

Steve

I have a problem w/ my car not starting sometimes. I have a new drycell battery and cleaned all the connections on the starter w/ a contact cleaner and replaced the ground strap. The problem seems to happen not as often and I was wondering what and were the 14 pin connector is and where the harness w/ the big red wire and 2 smaller red wires and a small yellow wire go. Are they going to the 14 pin connector somewhere in the engine compartment?

Battery voltage is 12.6v and about 14v when running. Is the a place I can put the + and - meter connections on the starter?

Not to hi-jack this thread, but it sounds simmilar to my problem.

Gary

Shuie,

When I start my car I never hear anything from the DME. At one time I would hear the fuel pump with the key in the ON position but after talking to DonDavis he told me to connect the fuel pump wire to a different fuse and now the pump is quiet.

Tomorrow I'll send you some pics of how I wired the harness to the front fuse panel (it's too dark out right now). This may be of some help to you.

So when you turn the key to start the car everything gets quiet? That sounds like a bad ground connection.

But don't worry, I went through the same issues your having right now and believe me it's just a matter of time before it's up and running!

We'll get you through this in no time!

SmileWavy

Thanks guys. I'll take all the help I can get.

Im really cornfused by the engine not turning over. Does the red wire from the starter connect through the 14 pin engine harness?

The red wire from the starter stay's the same as your original setup. As I can remember, I just plugged in the 14 pin engine harness to the stock connector in the engine compartment. Nothing else at the rear of the car had to be changed.

It's the front of the car that has to be sorted out. And it's not that complicated (really:) ). I think there's maybe 6 or 7 wires in all.

Don't sweat it Shuie, you got a bunch of guy's here with a lot of good info for ya, I'll get those pics for ya tomorrow!

The wiring at the front of the car from the DME on a 3.2 conversion should have nothing to do with the car turning over, two wires are involved in making the starter turn, the big red one which is straight to the battery with no connections and the yellow one which comes straight from the key switch through the 14 pin connector to the starter solonoid. You should have taken a spur of this at the front that goes to pin 4 on the DME relay but that shouldnt affect the engine turning over. If you have the big red wire connected and a 12v live when you switch the key to the solonoid wire and good earths the starter should turn.

To solve this you need a tester lamp, test the big red wire it sould be constantly live, then chk the yellow wire in the 14 pin connector this should have 12v when in the switch is in the start position.

When you did you wiring at the front is it possible you just rewired the yelow starter wire to the DME relay rather than taking a spur of it and keeping the original connected?

Steve

There are 3 wires connected to my starter:

-Yellow, thin - connected to the spade on the solenoid, pin 1 on my 14 pin connector
-Red, thicker - connected to the starter on the same lug as the main heavy gauge cable
-Black, heavy gauge - main wire from the battery

Is the medium gauge red wire on my starter connected through the engine harness? If so, what should it be connected to?

I have no yellow wire coming from or connected to anything on my DME. The starter wire from my DME is black and is in the same part of the harness as the green-red fuel pump wire in the front of the car. Both of these are connected to a switched 12v terminal on my fuse panel and are getting 12V with the key on. Is any switched 12V source okay for this?

There is a bundle of ground wires in the DME harness that I have connected to the intake manifold securely. My transmission ground strap is securely and cleanly attached to the lug on the rear firewall/heel kick panel.

TIA

Yeah sorry I mixed my colors up the thick black one is what goes to the battery, the red wire that connects to the same place on the starter is just an extension of this that goes to the alternator to connect the alternator direct to the battery.

Steve

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159109955.jpg

Ok,

as you can see from my pic the thick black wire goes directly to the battery, the 2 smaller black wires are connected to fuse 7 and the red/green wire (fuel pump) is on fuse 3 which are all on the left side of the panel. I have a wire going from fuse 3 (right side of panel) to the fuel pump (positive).

The black/purple is for the tack and the yellow and green wires are not connected in my case.

Can you send us a pic of your wiring in the engine compartment? I'm interested to see how you did it.


Tim G.

Test light at the spade on the starter solenoid is lighting up when I turn the key to start the car. That means either the big cable is bad, my freshly rebuilt starter is bad, or I have a bad chassis ground, right? How can I test this starter without electrocuting myself?


Tim, I had everything on the first switched 12Volt fuse I found. I think it was #4.

I've now moved the fuel pump up to fuse number 3, and moved the black DME harness starter wire and the black wire from pin 5 on the DME harness to fuse number 7, like you have pictured. Im not hearing the click from under the seat now.

Did you test the big cable with he test light? this should be constantly live?

You can test the starter with a fully charged battery put the -ve to the body of the starter put a +ve to the big connector with the thick wire then use anothe +ve wire and touch the solonoid spade it should spin. Make sure you use thick cable for the earth and to the main starter power.

Do you here the starter solonoid click when you turn the key? this normally means low battery power of bad earth?

Steve

Sherman, you should get the test light to illuminate when you touch between the starter/battery cable and chassis ground. If not then you have a bad connection to the starter. If you have 12V at the starter(blk/red) and from the ignition switch (yellow) It could be a bad ground or the starter is bad. Possibly the starter solenoid is bad too. You can test that by touching a jumper wire across the solenoid from the battery post on the starter to the spade connector for the yellow wire. you can also test the motor without engaging the pinion. you will see the braided connection from the starter solenoid to the starter motor, touch the jumper from the battery lug to the starter motor housing.

best of luck.

Jamie

Thanks, guys.

Steve, I get no click from the starter when I turn the key. Im starting to wonder about my battery. Its reading 12V on a meter, but I've had one of these PC680s die before. I have a 12V reading between the lug on the starter from the big cable and my chassis, so the ground must be okay, right?.

Through the tranny and tranny ground strap, Make sure the bolts are really tight sometimes low current things like a test light will work with a poor earth but with something high amp like the starter it needs a really good earth this is one problem with testing for a bad earth.

Steve

If Im getting a 12V reading between the lug on the starter and tranny ground strap, is it safe to assume that I have a good ground? The connection is tight. Im going to have this battery tested before I leave for work today.

Shuie,

How many spades are on the solinoid? i have seen some with two terminals. Placing the wire on the wrong terminal gave the same condition you described.

Also try tapping on the starter as it may be stuck from setting.

Also check what voltage you get when you apply load to the starter. You will be looking for too much drop.

Shuie,

do you have a 2 battery setup like I do, or are you just running one?

Just curious.:)

Aaron, there's a single spade on the starter. I hooked my meter up to the ground strap and the starter cable and got a constant 12 Volts when I turned the key. There was no voltage drop that I could see on the meter.

Tim, the battery is a single Oddessey PC680 dry cell lightweight unit.

I'll have the battery checked tonight on my way out of town and try this again next weekend when I get back. thanks again for the offers to help, everyone.

Sherman

I'm going to assume when you say 12v your just generalizing the exact voltage.

But, in case that's a bad assumption on my part, a reading of 12.0v would indicate a dead battery, 12.8v would indicate a full charge. 12.0v could easily result in the conditions you're describing.

A good practice is to keep a battery charger hooked to the battery when trying to troubleshoot a situation like this.

Cliff, It was exactly 12V on my meter. Auto parts store confirmed that the battery is garbage.

FWIW, this is the 2nd PC680 that has died on me. The battery is easier to change than the starter at this stage, so at least I can be glad about that for now.

Shuie. Sent you a OM. Call me tomorrow. Too tired tonite to type.

Did I ever tell anyone that this place rules?

I had my battery tested at a 2nd store and they said it was okay, but that it needed to be charged. I put the battery on the charger for a few hours last night and this morning, I got out a mirror to get a good look at my starter. Low and behold, there is another set of spades on the solenoid. After swapping the yellow wire over to one of these spades, the engine started to turn over.

Im off to build oil pressure and attempt to start the car.

Thanks again, everyone!

Congrads! Thats what happen to me. Now go out and enjoy!

Shuie this will be a great day if you get your motor turning, and LSU winning!

Is that the greatest feeling in the world when you here it turn over for the first time?!!:D

Your just about there Shuie, just keep us posted on your progress.

Shuie.

Glad you found it! BTDT

Let us know how the test drive goes.

Oil pressure built up fine after letting the motor turn over a few dozen times. The engine would not fire after I plugged my DME relay back in, so I tried swapping the connections for the flywheel reference sensor wires. After that, it tried to start, stumbled for a second or two and then died. Tried a few more times and got the same results. Its almost like the timing is way off, or I messed up the plug firing order. The wires are precut to the correct length and the distributor cap is numbered for each cylinder, so Im fairly certain the plug wires are hooked up correctly. IIRC, I don't have to set the ignition timing on A DME car. I did get it to run for a few seconds, but I have to press the accelerator while cranking the car to get any kind of results.

Maybe the plugs? I forgot to change those while the motor was out :o

Any thoughts?

TIA

What fuel pump are you using? If you have the correct pump for a 3.2 then you should never have to touch the pedal to start it.

Maybe a pinched fuel line?

fuel pump is a brand new 3.2 unit. My fuel lines are newly fabricated and perfect, nothing pinched anywhere. Weird thing is that I dont smell fuel at all. I can tell its circulating through the lines when I wire the pump to a switched 12V, but Im not sure what's happening as I turn the key with it wired normally.

Should my test light pulse as the engine cranks if I hook it to the green/red fuel pump wire from the DME?

I'm not sure if your test light will pulse when it's hooked to green/red, but it should at least read 12v.

Tomorrow morning I'll take a look at my car and see if there's something I'm overlooking with your setup.

It has to be some small detail somewhere.

check fuel preasure at the engine and have a buddy crank while you monitor. Also, if the engine wants to fire with the throttle pressed by all means press the accelerator. The efi cars need some help when you disconect the battery but should smooth out in a couple of minutes of running.

Your almost there.

Car is running. Thanks guys.

Rear brakes, shifter linkage, and clutch cable helper assembly are all that it needs. Should be driveable next weekend.

COOL! What was it?

I cant tell you how much fun I have been having since my car has been finished. Glad to hear yours is also there!

wish I could help ya out with the Rear Brakes sherman. After working on my 73 I could do it blind folded.