Is there a definitive guide to rocker panel replacement?
 

I've searched quite a bit, but can't find exactly what I need. I need to replace the outer rockers on my 69. I've already gotten the replacement panels from restoration design, so I just need a little roadmap before I start cutting into my car. I seem to remember someone doing a great post on it (Milt maybe?) but I can't seem to track it down. Any suggestions?

AJ USA
 

AJ USA has a pretty good catalog that shows parts and sheetmetal
and so does FVD motorsports.

I have seen some good examples in the performance products catalogs as well if you can catch the right issue.

Try those.

Chris

Sorry...I must not have explained myself very well. I *have* the sheetmetal, it's the "know how" I'm seeking. I thought there was a thread somewhere that someone had done on it that was kind of a definitive guide. Thanks!

Lessee, I don't know if I completely explained the process and documented it with pics. To start, you must locate (a woven wire wheel on an angle grinder works the best) all the spot welds in the door seal channel and at the floor pan, then drill every one. Some say you can cut some stuff flush and then grind the flange off even with the bottom or other piece. That works too, but the drilled holes make plug welding very easy. You can drill completly through the top 2 pieces of the u-shaped door seal channel. Not necessay at the floor pan, but it you do, don't fret.

Off comes the outer piece (sill), which is connected at the front door jamb (be cautious here so as to not loose the "other" piece") and at the door opening radius right at where it becomes flat and straight down from there. There is factory lead there, so be safe when grinding and wheeling.

The inner rocker is welded at the channel at the vertical position and at the bottom pinch seam, so more holes to be done. Try not to drill through these (a spot weld bit does that nicely and they can be had on many sites like autobodytooldotcom, or something like that.

Next, comes the fitting of the new panels. RD stuff, although good, is not plug and play. Truss head sheet metal TEK screws are my favorite temporary assembly device. You can use pop rivets, but you have to drill them out each time you remove. Of course, a bunch of various welder's ViceGrips are nice too, even to hold while you're drilling in the TEK's. And Clecos work well, but the TEKs pull things together when you get ready to weld/

If things don't line up just right, drill another hole, you're going to plug weld them all in the end anyway. Get started on this, I'll keep the thread subscribed and I and the others can walk you through, It's pointless to try and understand all of it until you expose some of the work area. BTW, be careful with your cutting wheel and Sawzall. There's the heater tube inside and it fills up the whole space between the floor pan and the inner rocker. You can end up cutting this inadvertently, not that it will end the world.

BTW, it's best to get the car completely level side to side and front to back so you can check things as you go. Support the whole car at as many points as you have stands using metal shims. Get more stands, 8 is good. You can use 2 x lumber across level under car places like the bulkhead.

Very important: Support the engine and trans ass'y almost to the point of lift the car off the stands under the trailing arm t-bar projections. You are removing the backbone of the car and you want to do this methodically. You can and should do both sides at the same time, alternating in a hop scotch, back and forth method. If you only have one side to do (unlikely), so be it.

Leave the doors on as much as possible, and check your gaps as you go. You will find they have to off for removal and some welding, so make lots of witness marks while the car is still on the ground, then up in the air. Use the pins for removal and rehanging each time. Build a door jack to help you if you are working alone and the doors are loaded.

A trick I always used on replacing MGB door sills was to tack weld a piece of rebar across the top of the door opening (tack the ends of the rebar on either side of the door opening) to keep the body from flexing. Of course a convertible MGB flexes a hell of a lot more than a 911!

Milt,

Thanks for the great tips. I *do* have to do the outer rockers on each side. I'll get it leveled and cut off, and get back to you.

Yeah, I know that. And you have inner rockers too. When the crud cakes up from the rear wheel throwing it at the opening, it builds up between the two and rusts them both. If there was no direct path in to that area, I would submitt there would be less problems. It all loads up right at the jack receiver and support.

They fixed that in '74 with the removable rockers. They still rust. Ask any 914 guy with removable rockers. But, on the <'73, you can't get in there to see w/o a borescope (sp?).

Well, I'm hopeful that the inners aren't shot...the outers aren't TOO bad, but maybe I'm being too optimistic. I s'pose I'll know once they're off!

Brad Roberts of 914 and SSI fame has made some braces for the door opening out of plates that match the bolt pattern of the hinge and strike plate, two tabs as in double shear and connected with a tube fixed up with hiem joints. Now, that's the business!

They use these when putting a cage in the tub. You could practice your welding skills on something like that.

Having done this I can offer a few suggestions over what has already been said.

I used the "cut to the edge of the seam and grind off the remaining metal" approach. My skills at drilling spot welds really suck. It was easier and faster to do this. Besides, even after drilling you have to hit it with a chisl to break the panel loose. This usually requires metal work to straighten the flange or supporting panel prior to fitment of the new one.

where is the rust? Just in the middle, ends? This could make installation of the new rocker easier. For example, on one side of my car the rust was in the forward two thirds of the panel. I cut the panel at the rear seam where the latch panel, rocker and QP overlap. I then trimmed the end of the new rocker and ran a bead of weld up the panel. That leaded joint had to be refinshed (plastic filler) so it was no problem to metal finish the butt weld and hide.

If you can do not disturb the rear section. It is difficult to get to the joint between the rocker and the inner fender support (kidney panel). Its really hard to weld that section unless you are good at welding blind or want to section the quarter panel for access. It can be done but its not easy.

My car had no drivetrain so supporting the rear of the car was not an issue. try to leave the door in place so you can check door/rocker alignment (very often). Nothing worse than welding up a panel to find that your door won't close.

I used RD panels. The fit well with a few notable exceptions. The folds for the upper seam was not "crisp". I had to make them nice and square for a good fit. Also the C shape of the outer rocker was too open. I had to close it up to mate the lower seam.

best of luck.

Here's a little trick I came up with for easily removing the inner and outer rockerpanels and using a MIG welder to reassemble it all. Here's how the panels are joined at the factory using a spot welder:

http://members.aol.com/darryld/912cuts1.jpg

Careful cutting at the upper corner of the weatherstrip lip lets you peel off the inner and outer rockerpanel spotweld flange in one piece without disturbing the good sheetmetal, which keeps the alignment of all the new sheetmetal panels perfect:

http://members.aol.com/darryld/912RRKR3.jpg

When you're welding in the replacement inner rocker panel, you can run a weld bead along the upper inside edge of the weatherstrip lip to rejoin the section left there from the original outer rockerpanel to strengthen it. I like to punch holes for MIG spot welds and then grind the excess weld bead flush to lay the outer rockerpanel sheet metal on top of.

Then when you're putting the new RD outer rockerpanel sheetmetal back on, tin snip that excess upper lip of the weatherstrip lip off the replacement sheetmetal and punch the holes for the MIG spotwelds along the back edge like so:

http://members.aol.com/darryld/912welds.jpg

The sheetmetal panels are reassembled a bit different than original but it allows straight on access of the MIG welder inside the weatherstrip channel instead of a specialized factory spot welder and it is just as strong, if not stronger. Better yet, this method will preserve the original weatherstrip lip from the top side and it looks factory original once back together.

Here's the whole project journal if you're interested in more detail: My quest for a truly rust-free 912

Darryl, I agree with the lower of the two cuts, but how do you cut the upper one w/o cutting thru the factory lip that you are preserving? Carefully with a disc?

Nice work, as always. I don't know if I saw those particular pics before. Michael ought to have a handle on it by now.

Hey Milt!

Just another way to "skin a cat" and overcome the limitations of the tools available in a bodyshop and still end up with a virtually invisible repair.

I use the ever versatile 4½" grinder with a cut-off wheel to make all the cuts (it's laying on the lift runner in the photo). A pneumatic body saw is a handy gadget to have too.

That upper cut is not all that tricky since there is actually a gap between the outer and the inner panel. I just start from the back and work forward in 5" sections, keeping the cut-off wheel grinding back-and-forth over the cut until it looks like it's almost through the outer layer of steel. Then I just pull on it and it's tears the last little bit off, like opening a sardine can. It's pretty obvious process once you get the strip started. I've found a crowbar handy (and wood blocks to brace it against the heater tube) for those sections that need just a little more convincing to tear apart and stop for more cutting if it starts bending the weatherstrip channel.

This anatomy photo really shows how all the panels go together and what a "rot hole" the cavities inside the rockerpanels and the area under the heater tube are.

http://members.aol.com/darryld/912rpcs.jpg


I'm always amazed at the amount of dirt and rust scales accumulated there and if any moisture is introduced, it can never completely dry out. By the time rust bubbles start forming on the outer rockerpanel, the inner rockerpanel is most certainly FUBAR as well and will need to be replaced. Then when you remove that, the outer section of floorpan is FUBAR and will need to be replaced. Next thing you know, you're on "the quest for a rust free ______ " (fill in the blank)! :rolleyes:

This is an excellent thread. Thanks for the info and pics!
-Scott

Wow...Darryl...that picture absolutely rocks. Thanks!

Lets hope this turns into the definitive guide. I will try to outline it like I did my gas tank support repair:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/284390-documentation-gas-tank-support-replacement-69-911t-pics.html

Thanks, Darryl. Yes, I have one of those cross sections, too. Very handy in understanding what is welded to what and when (the sequence). I also have a cross section of an A pillar. Five pieces in all, more than a rocker!! I tellya, rust don't scare Darryl and me ;)

Ok, I did it.
 

I finally dug into the rockers today. I got impatient and cut away the inner portion so I could see what was underneath. Good news and bad news.

Good news is, the inner rockers look fine. (whew!) I'll grind the surface clean and POR-15 them for future reference.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1167199983.jpg

Bad news is...

The area to the rear of the rockers looks pretty crappy, and will certainly need to be patched. I am having a hard time telling exactly how the rear of the rocker integrates with the door jam. It looks like it overlaps somehow...is it tacked, or just filled with lead at that point? Any tips appreciated.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1167200118.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1167200160.jpg

I bent the lip of the top so I could start drilling out the spot welds. Should I just grind off the welds to the front as well?

Anyway...I'll document the deal here, so all can benefit. There's no "be all, end all thread on rocker replacement on the message board". Lets make this one the deal!

First tip, take a torch and melt away all the lead solder around that rockerpanel/rear quarterpanel joint all the way down to the jack tube and all the assembly secrets will be revealed.

I just have a propane torch...is that hot enough?

perfect.

Yeah, you use the same propane torch to put the lead back on. That's a fun job. Ask me how I know. If you don't want to fill the planned and correct factory depressions using lead, may I suggest the fiber filled and metallic body fillers as a substitute? I still use lead, that's not for everyeone for a number of reasons.

Silly question...what's the best way to remove the door pins in the door?

Already discussed. Search KevinP73 for the answer, but I use a punch on the small end to get them moving and then a fork like thingy and a hammer to bring them out by the button-top. Not tidy sometimes and downright dangerous around perfect paint.

The factory makes a tool for this. That's where Kevin comes in.

Resubscribing. Sorry. I clicked the deadly "unsubscribe from all threads" link.

Ok...finally ready.
 

Ok Milt et al.,

After months of cold, *****eful weather here in Colorado, I was finally able to get my wheels on and get the car out of the garage. Below are pics with what I'm facing. Here are my questions:

1. As you can see, I've bent the lip that the door molding goes into so I have access to the spot welds. Is this the right move?

2. I'm not exactly sure how to approach the rear of the rocker, in terms of removal. I've already blown through the leaded joint with my grinder. How do I remove the rear section? edit: I just read the thread above...propane torch. Duh. I should pay more attention. :)

3. On the same token, what do I do with the front section?

The good news is, the inner rocker looks pretty good. The jack mount looks *ok*, but I'm probably going to get another one so it's all shiny and brand new in there. It's a little rotted at the bottom.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1173639625.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1173639716.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1173639749.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1173639773.jpg

Ok...I melted away some of the lead...sure is ugly in there!

I've photoshopped a photo of the end result. Should I cut the outer body so I can get the inside welded in?

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1173642466.jpg

progress...
 

I don't know that I can do more without removing the door, so that might be the end of the day. I gave up on drilling the spot welds, and hit it with my cutting wheel.

It looks a lot cleaner now though...

No idea what to do with the rear portion. Ugh.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1173646758.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1173646795.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1173646821.jpg

I think you need to do some rust prospecting, which means spot sand blasting and probing for weak areas in that inner rocker panel sheetmetal. Judging from what I can see from your photos, you've got some rust issues to solve before worrying about cosmetic ones.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1173652452.jpg

If it looks this bad from the outside, the insides of that longitudinal panel is going to really be ugly. You've got to have sound steel to weld that outer rockerpanel to or it will bust the welds at the first railroad track you cross.

Darryl,

Thanks for the reply. I think spot blasting is a good idea, though I don't have one. I was going to wire brush it first and see what that got me. It *looks* ok, but you might (unfortunately) be right. And yes, I was planning on replacing the jack post while I was in there.

Sigh. Good times.

Use a grinder, a wire brush will just polish the rust. I would prospect using a center punch and hammer in the worst looking area and hit it hard. If it shatters like a burned potato chip or dents like aluminum foil, your answer will be quick. Pretend it's somebody else's car for a minute, that combats the completely understandable denial one gets in these situations.

I think Milt would agree, that inner rocker panel looks pretty bad and the problem is that area rusts from the bottom up... right where you need good steel to weld that outer rocker panel on and it must endure a good bit of flex.

I'm assuming you want to do this right as a keeper and not to just flip this car onto some unsuspecting buyer, right?

Yes, absolutely. I want to fix it right. If I have to dig all the way down, I will.

I can get a portable sandblaster right?

subscribing...

emptyo - thanks for posting. any updated photos of the rocker fix?

No kemo...not yet. I feel like I've reached an impasse with my skill level at the moment. Plus, I need to order some jack metal and I haven't done that yet. Maybe this weekend I'll get the doors off and the thing fully removed.

So, I'm hoping I might be able just cut out the bad section of the inner and patch in new material if it doesn't pass the grinder test. Thoughts?

OK, I'll weigh in here. You can't weld to metal that isn't bight and silver or is too thin. And by "too thin" I mean uneven metal that has been cleaned up but shows a lot of etching due to rust. This usually means that more metal has to be cut out than you plan on at first to get to solid surrounding metal. In some circumstances, you could patch, but overlays are not recommended, only tolerated if done well and no rust is captured behind and steps have been taken to ensure no rust will form between the patch and the original portion.

I use a portable sandblaster shot through a rubber vacuum attachment with the vac running to contain and capture what I can. It's based on a machine developed many years ago called Vacublast. The name says it all.

These suckers are expensive but way cool: http://www.chamberlainsvacublast.com/products.html

I have access to a portable sandblaster. I'm also tempted to pay a pro to do this part for me, but money's tight at the moment.

Maybe not a bad idea. The car can and will change shape if you're not careful. The rear quarter reattachment is especially critical as is overall door/rocker alignment. The car can move around when welding if you let too much heat build up.

If you've ever been under or in a house being jacked, you've heard all the cracks and pops. Well, you should hear one of these cars as you go. They'll let you know if you're hurting them. ;)

I was lucky enough to stop by Darryl's shop one day - if you think his work is magnificent, you should see his workshop!

The reason I mention this is that he created his own sandblasting booth with vacuum system. If he checks back here, maybe he could post a few photos and explain the set-up. It was ingenious!

Regards,