In-Line fuel-inj 4 in a early 911

[Duckworth]

A short time ago someone posted a pic of a Saab motor in a 911.
I kinda liked the idea - even though I think it was a joke pic.

If you wanted to go this route - what good choices, if any - could you choose from ?

Are there good 4 cyl performance motors around today - capable of making 160 + h.power - and not 'turned on their sides' in a Japanese FWD designed car ?

BMW enthusiasts loved the S-14 motor that went into the M3 cars around the late '80's or so... Around 190 - 230 horsepower out of them from, I believe.

I'm interested in the simplest and easiest motor to accomplish the task - and am looking for long range for highway miles.

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'82 Targa - sold
'80 928

[PCA7GGR]

Subaru boxer 4 cylinder 2.5 liter turbo = 230-250hp (300hp if from an Sti). Saw one in a 914 at GAF. Spin it around 180 degrees and you put it in a 911. But.... I haven't seen one in that configuration as of yet.

[Duckworth]

Uh........, no... not a turbo. Just would not interest me very much.

Normally aspirated horses - straight 4 design and 'simplicity' that would scream at you - is my goal.

I'd better qualify myself in that 911 owners in general are often less than thrilled by 'conversions' - and I tend to agree with them. Unless the motor 'seems to belong' in the car, the end result is lacking. So, the hope here is that 911 enthusiasts - of which I am also one - can see the possibility of this - without threat to the original design.

What about a Toyota motor from one of their truck models ?

BTW, can any FWD engine be turned from sideways to 'fore and aft' with a minimum of fuss ?
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'82 Targa - sold
'80 928

[EarlyPorsche]

Is this really going to happen?

[onlycafe]

the subaru engine was designed for them by porsche, they are plentiful and cheap.a couple of guys are running them in 550 replicas and seem to love them.

[ianc]

I just really can't understand why anyone would ever contemplate doing this unless they couldn't afford rebuilding their original motor. And, if you can't afford to rebuild your motor, you better sell the car, because things are going to go downhill very quickly...

ianc

[Duckworth]

Is this really going to happen? ...EarlyPorsche

I've given it serious thought for some time now....trouble is - I don't yet have a 'firm' confidence in the idea, especially without the equipment choices lined up. Ian's comment is exactly the kind of sentiment that a cautious person will hear over their shoulder.

IMO conversions require 'Jerry Seinfeld' type of money to turn out as nice as you envision them. Things just don't fall into place like we would all like them to be.

However, I disagree with Ian when he asks 'why anyone would ever contemplate' a one-off powerplant in an early car. If the project were finalized and you handed him the keys for a test run - and told him for ex., that the S-14 motor was installed successfully - that he would be interested in the result - meaning he wouldn't walk away from it.


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'82 Targa - sold
'80 928

[Duckworth]

..

[ianc]

Yes, why would you? If you have the requisite desire (and cash), you can go up to ~300 hp with a 3.6, or more with a turbo. You'd have the same flat six you love, and wouldn't have some crazy one-off that no one would be able to service or troubleshoot in years to come.

Nice Beamer mill above, but where are you going to put the radiator(s)? Old cars are much too rare and expensive to cut up. Keep it 911.

ianc

[Duckworth]

If you have the requisite desire (and cash), you can go up to ~300 hp with a 3.6, or more with a turbo. You'd have the same flat six you love, and wouldn't have some crazy one-off that no one would be able to service or troubleshoot in years to come.... Old cars are much too rare and expensive to cut up.
...IanC

...Good point about early models being rare and expensive - but wouldn't you cherish the completed car for years to come ? Everyone and their brother is running 3.6 motors these days - and they are excellent motors.

But the S-14 would give give you something 'different' provided you worked out the parameters of the rad. You mention you like the motor I showed you....but worry about wrecking the car.
'Some' of the cars out there in not very nice condition might fit the bill rather nicely - after the car was alleviated of rust by blasting and what have you....rust issues sorted and painted.

I happen to adore the early cars - but I also happen to adore liquid cooling on motors. So what's a guy to do ?

Nice Beamer mill above... IanC

...

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'82 Targa - sold
'80 928

[ianc]

wouldn't you cherish the completed car for years to come ?

I'd cherish it more with a well-done 3.6 conversion, and so would a potential buyer.

But the S-14 would give give you something 'different'

I don't see that there's anything inherently 'better' about 'different'. In fact I can see lots of reasons why it isn't. At least in terms of reliable, serviceable automotive conversions...

but I also happen to adore liquid cooling on motors

How about a 2002 for that M Motor and leave the 911 out of it?

ianc

[Duckworth]

No question that you're 'dismayed ' on the idea right now....but just wait.



Here is a picture of Ian and myself when it is unveiled and he asks for a chance to drive it.



Phil
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'82 Targa - sold
'80 028

[Todd Simpson]

The S14 is a cool motor, but will run you $3-4K for a decent example. Sorting exhaust, clutch, cooling and everything else will run a LOT more.

The wisdom of taking out an aluminum/magnesium flat engine for a cast iron block upright engine should also be considered. I'll also say 2.3 liters and 190 hp from the S14 really isn't impressive when you consider the '71 911S had 2.2 and put out 180 while the 72 911S has "2.4" and also put out 190. That's a stock motor, 20 years before the S14.

But hey, if you pull it off you'll get two thumbs up from me, two of my favorite cars in one.

Do you know if it will fit with the decklid closed, or will you run a tail?

[DW SD]

That's an awful lot of work for little in return.

Why not do an all aluminum crate chevy motor for about 10k? You'll piss off the purists just the same, write-off resale just the same, except have an extra 200HP to 300HP, readily available conversion parts through renegade and a more fun overall package.

In general, I'm not a fan of other motors in a 911. At least in the Renegade package you get WAY more power w/o a lot more cost.

[Evans, Marv]

You might also talk to Kennedy Engineering to see if they know anything about it or have any kits or parts.

[svandamme]

Originally posted by PCA7GGR
Subaru boxer 4 cylinder 2.5
...snip...put it in a 911. But.... I haven't seen one in that configuration as of yet.

i have, on this board...

[FenderGuy]

Originally posted by svandamme
i have, on this board...

Me too

the porscharu works!!!!

altporsche is the name

[randywebb]

BMW motorcycle engine...

[Duckworth]

...Not sure yet about the clearance at the decklid, but a ducktail would solve that with minimal effort.

Thanks for the inputs thus far as well as some of the pitfall realities involved in such a project. If such project had been tried before, I'd be in a better position to speculate on the results achieved from such a motor. With so many projects tried and tested on 911’s – widebody, slope-nose, nitrous, blown motors, Chevy motors, etc., - that this idea 'might' have seen the light of day in some part of the world....but apparently is not the case. (no pun)

The aluminum SBC motor mentioned for $10K presents great 'bang for the buck' – but steers away from the idea of a 'basic' and well sorted compact motor that is eager to wind up.
The basic feel and sound of the early car is what I’d like to keep in mind. V8 thunder is powerful - but it's also a large reciprocating mass that you are aware of back there.

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'82 Targa - sold
'80 928

[DW SD]

Chevy V-8s don't weigh more than the standard 911 engines (believe it or not). I think all AL chevy is less, possibly. Search this BBS on engine weight.

My point was if you are doing the work, why end up with something pretty mundane as far as performance. $10k would buy you a new crate motor. You could buy a plug and play, but used Vette motor for far less in all AL and the renegade parts are already designed and ready to bolt together. You could probably use two front radiators that mount in the front wheel wells and keep your narrow body in tact.
Just a thought....
Maybe use two BMW motorcycle engines?? Like Randy proposed. I think there is a good reason many have explored and few ended up changing from the standard Porsche engines.

I still think the best idea is to put a pumped BMW engine in a 2002, then.

Doug