All Inclusive Carrera Brake Maintenance List

[MattAlpha]

Through the annals of the 911 Technical Forum I have compiled the following list for my first full brake system maintenance. Now I am in need of you really smart guys (and those who have done this yourself) out there to tell me what I've missed and what I need to watch out for while I'm doing the maintenance.

Carrera Brake Maintenance List:
Remove and have Brake Rotors Turned (non-ventilated rotors)
Replace pads (4 Wide "A" and 4 Wide "M")
-->Delete Pad Sensors and wiring (Personal choice)
Replace front calipers' dust caps
Replace soft hoses (if needed, I'm going the SS route)
Flush brake system with new (different color) fluid
Fill brake system with DOT 3 or 4 brake fluid
Use a power bleeder (to remove air bubbles at each caliper's bleeder valve)
-->Use only flare nut wrenches on the brake lines!

This is what I've come up with so far.

Let me know what I've missed.

I'm planning on completing this maintenance sometime in late November and I want to make sure that I buy everything that I need so that I do not get stuck in the middle of the job. My 911 is my daily driver so I can't let it sit on jack stands while I wait for a part or something else.

Thank you all in advance.

Hopefully this thread will help someone else out as well...
-Matt

[masraum]

Carrera rotors are ventilated (at least in the front). Vented rotors are rotors that are basically 2 plates connected with ribs in between. I'm certain the fronts are vented, the rears may be as well.

I'd rebuild the fronts at least. The right front is notorious for eventually starting to drag. It's so cheap and so easy, if you are in there anyway, may as well.

I wouldn't got the SS route. They look pretty, but if something happens you can't see the rubber to determine if it's damaged or not. The original rubber has lasted this long so it must be good. Also, the whole "firmer brake pedal" thing with SS hoses is bunk.

Go ahead and get ATE super blue fluid from Pelican.

I'd say that your list is pretty good. replace all hoses, replace all pads, rebuild at least the front calipers, replace or turn the rotors, check the parking brake shoes and hardware, flush fluid (ATE Blue, using vacuum or pressure bleeder NOT buddy pumping method), don't forget to bed the pads. Before you start you may want to measure the front rotors to see if you should turn or replace. They aren't that expensive. You may or may not also want to do the front bearings and seals while you have things apart.

[MattAlpha]

Steve thank you for the quick reply.

You are right, both front and rear are ventilated ( I do not have the drilled rotors).

So I should ditch the SS lines, okay. I geuss I was stuck on looks.

Re-building the front calipers and prehaps the rear then as well. How much do those kits run. I didn't see them on our host, but I probably missed them.

What is involved with the bearings and seals. I know the bearings are ball-bearings. Do they use the same Moly grease as the joints? What seals do I need to replace. I prefer to hit those while you're in there things then as well. I do not want to miss anything though.

Also what is so hard about removing the dust caps. I've read several posts about this horror...?

-Matt

[SRL84Car]

I did this about 6 months ago. I used the Porterfield R4-S pads and Stop-Tech SS lines with the ATE fluid. I am very happy with the results after performing the pad setting procedures from the Stop-Tech website.

Regarding rubber vs. SS lines there is a lot of information floating around. I would replace "old" because the weakness may be on the inside and not visible from the outside. So, IMHO, the important decision is to replace the lines, the secondary decision is rubber or SS.

[masraum]

Removing the dust caps isn't that hard. Some folks use large channel locks. I put a 2" exhaust clamp in the groove around the end and then pried on the exhaust clamp.

here are the rebuild kits http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/shopcart/911M/POR_911M_BRKhyd_pg4.htm#item15
They run just under $12.

I'd use wheel bearing grease for the wheel bearings. I'm not sure, maybe the moly grease for the joints would work. You may or may not need to replace the bearings. You'll probably at least want to repack them. The seal is just a seal that keeps the grease in inside bearing area. Replacing the races for the bearings is a pain and requires heating and cooling of two parts, but replacing the seal is easy.

Here are the seals
http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/shopcart/911M/POR_911M_SUSaxl_pg2.htm#item7

[SRL84Car]

One more comment, I just noted you mentioned a flare nut wrench. On that, from my experience buy a good one. I bought a cheap one and the tolerance was sloppy. Spend $10 more and buy a good brand and use it carefully.

[Rot 911]

If you use a power bleeder make sure you clamp off the overflow hose at the brake reservoir.

[Gunter]

Matt:
The front bearings are taper-bearings, not roller.
Follow the procedure for torqueing taper-bearings as explained in the Bentley Repair Manual. If you don't have one, get one.
Moly grease isn't necessary; Extreme Pressure grease (EP2) is good.
Don't overfill the dust caps; excess grease will squeeze out of the seals.
After installing the new, or turned, rotors, use a dial indicator to check "Run-out". Meaning: The sideways wobble of the rotors.
Should be no more than 0.003".
Bad/distorted hubs or rotors can give you more run-out.
If you change the bearings, make sure that the outer race sits right against the shoulder in the hub.
It's all in the Bentley; get one.
Most people don't, but I also check that the calipers are actually centered after the rotors are installed. With pads out, look down from the top: Is there equal space on both sides between the caliper and rotor? I have seen some real bad differences requiring shims under the mounting bolts for the calipers to get them centered.
Soak the threads of the bleed nipples and make sure that you use the right box-end wrench: A good 9mm front, and a 7mm rear on SC's.
6-point wrenches are better than 12-point ones to really grip the hexagon.
Consider getting rebuild calipers; it'll save time and frustration.
You don't know the condition of the pistons until you open the calipers; you may not be able to re-use them.
Cleaning calipers is so much fun!
If you rebuild yourself, there is a procedure with compressed air to get the pistons out. You'll need 2 C-clamps for this, a compressor and safety glasses. Watch your fingers. That’s about the time you wish you had ordered rebuild calipers.
Do a search about this here.
Did I say get the Bentley?

[MattAlpha]

Thank you guys for all of your responses and suggestions.

I have the Bentley manual. I found in the past that there are a few things that the Bentley manual doesn't describe and I did not want to be surprised when I got into the project. These were mainly due to alterations that POs had done to the doors, engine bay, various electrical systems and so forth. I do have Carrera brakes (Wide A, Wide M calipers and 24 mm rotors), it took me a little while to verify, because a lot of things on this car were updated to approx. '86 but not everything.

I appreciate the advice on the calipers. I do not have an air compressor or pneumatic tools (I guess that's obvious, unless I just wanted to look at them), so it sounds like I will not be able to rebuild the calipers myself unless I bring them to a machine shop to have the pistons removed. So I'll have to look at what re-built calipers run. Maybe this project will be pushed until the New Year as I gather the required materials. Hopefully not though.

If I break the bearings open, there is no seal that needs to be replaced? Is that correct?

Thank you again for all of the advice and things that I need to consider,
Matt

[masraum]

I'm not trying to talk you into doing the calipers yourself, but you don't need a compressor to get the calipers out. I used a C-clamp. Yes, to get the pistons' OUT. Clamp one piston then lightly push down on the brake pedal just a little, the piston that's not clamped should move out just a bit. Then clamp that piston and apply pressure again. That should move the other piston out. I did that a couple of times until they both were ready to fall out. Then I disconnected the caliper from the brake line and was able to rebuild.

The way the bearing work is

nut - washer - outer bearing - hub - inner bearing - seal - spindle.

if you want to look at or repack the inner bearing then you'll have to remove the seal. If you want to do anything to the inner bearing then there is no seal.

[Thrasher]

Steve, I think Matt meant "drilled" when he said "ventilated" - can't turn drilled rotors...

I also went thru all of this within the past year on my 84.

New pads front and rear
New rotors front and rear (non-drilled)
New parking brake shoes
New OE rubber hoses front
Rebuilt front calipers (right side dragging)
Repacked front wheel bearings after removing all old grease.

I also used the muffler clamps (about a buck each) to remove my dust caps.

I do use my 10 YO son as a buddy for pumping the pedal and have never used any other method of bleeding.

I had issues removing the retaining clamps to get the hoses off and also had the hose on one side not want to break free, so I cut it off (another nice thing about rubber) and was able to remove it after I could get it to turn freely.

All the answers you need are in the archives, but feel free to ask if you can't find it. It's good to keep the info on these topics fresh, IMO.

Craig

[Thrasher]

On the compressor for piston removal: I have one, but found a bicycle pump worked better. the compressor has too much force and can shoot the puck (piston) out like a cannon - be careful!

The caliper rebuild is a very easy job and one that you can take the parts inside to a bench to do the work comforatably and cleanly. I took the opportunity to repaint my calipers to the original silver color using caliper paint. They look and work like brand new.

Also, you probably know this but it bears repeating: Be VERY careful with the brake fluid around paint. When you remove the hoses and calipers, be very prepared for the fluid that WILL come out.

If you want to keep air in the system to a minimum, use a golf club or similar to hold the brake pedal down about 1" before opening the system.

[MattAlpha]

Craig,
Thank you for the advice.

Very inciteful and much appreciated,
Matt

[randywebb]

"All the answers you need are in the archives, but feel free to ask if you can't find it. It's good to keep the info on these topics fresh, IMO.

- also, if you find the info but it isn't well organized then you might consider creating a well-organized, very specific how to do it thread -- there have at least a couple of those done -- recale's one on CV joints and one on the F suspension rebuild

it would be a public service and people will send you free beer (sure they will...)

Now - how old and how many miles on the car is an issue as to whether the weel bearing need to be rebuilt at all. As long as you don't care about the time & effort, then there is no reason NOT to do this. Regualr, preventive maintenance is a good thing. But, just as there is no reason to change the oil every 500 miles, there is no reason to regrease/rebuild the wheel bearing every few thousand miles or ever 2 years... what have you. so something to think about.

[MattAlpha]

Randy,

Since you asked, here is my pandora's box of my 911 opened (well at least as much as I've been able to figure out so far).

I bought this car on ebay in late June of 2005 from an owner in MI. The car had about 61,500 miles on the odometer. It was originally a Euro 1978 SC Targa and had been converted into an approx. '86 Turbo-look Cabriolet. Well I made the ultimate newbie mistake of not having a PPI done. Though I thought one had been done since the "certified inspection" box was checked in the auction. After $1500 to ship it to CA the total price was just shy of $18k. So I didn't think I paid that much for it, overall I now think I got it for a fair price.

The PO didn't know much of the history of the car (I will not mention his name because I think he is a good guy, but may not have an eye for attention to detail...) besides he said he bought it from a guy in CA a few years back. Back then the 3.2L was supposedly re-built.

Well when I got the car, the fog lights didn't work. One lens was cracked, the front chin spoiler was bent in a few places (still is, just haven't found a friend who can bang it out for me yet), and the rear spoilers also have several dents in them. So I look inside the engine bay. Its very dirty and I found the oil cap was off. Luckily the cap was still in there. I think who ever did the crappy inspection forgot to put it back on. Longer story, but I won't digrace. I changed the oil (& filter) with 10W-30 twice in the following six months. After the second oil change I put 20W-50. It took me nearly a year to fix the fog lights, several things (including wiring were wrong). The electric door locks seldom worked. After having both doors apart (four times +) in the past year I finally found the wires that were grounding each other out inside of the main sleath from the microswitch in the driver's side door. There were several other things as well that I'm in the process of fixing and so forth.

The real kicker is the seats. Original Porsche Sport seats. The PO had a nice set of neoprene covers over them and never took them off (he thought the leather was too hot and uncomfortable). So when I took them off, I saw that both seats were really dried out. I've conditioned each several times, but the passenger seat has a crack across the bottom seat pan and a burn hole from a cigarette. So I didn't want to spend the money on new leather covers just yet, so I found a used black passenger seat on Craigslist for a fair price. So I can have a decent seat until I can afford a new cover. So I go up to Sonoma and meet the guy (Constantine Petros) to buy the seat. Well he has been working on Porsches and Ferraris for a long time. He stops me from telling him anything about the car as he looks it over and tells me about it.

Basically here was his diagonsis. I have a later model hood (not sure if he meant '88-'89 or '90-'92) and doors (fixing the window height about four months ago I determined that I have coupe doors), 993 turbo twists, I have a 915 tranny (which I expected), a later model oil cooler, a 3.2L Carrera engine with no engine number (the bar it is supposed to be inscribed on has been physically cut out). So that was why I could never find my engine number...hum. So he asked me about my title. I told him that is was clean (and it still is). He told me that my car was mostly a donor for stolen parts!!!! Very nice to know. He told me that there was nothing I could do about it.

Well I bought the seat and I haven't installed it. Its an 8-way fully electric seat and my sport seat controls are 4-way. So I'm trying to sell the seat now in the classified section. But the most important part of the trip was learning a lot about my car in a very short time.

The car runs very well. I think the oil changes, new fan belt and valve adjustment helped quite a bit.

Now I'm trying to complete as much maintenance as possible before I move back to the east coast and go back on sea duty. When I'm back on a ship I will not have time to do the maintenance on my car.

Sorry about the long story, but I really can't say how many miles any of my parts have on them. I have no way to tell. My odometer currently has 62700 miles, but I'm pretty sure I can't trust that. This is my daily driver. So I'm trying to do everything as I have the time and the money.


Back to the purpose of this thread. I would like to do all the brake maintenance and while I'm in there things at once, hopefully only over a weekend. I would like to do it in late November, but it may be pushed to the January/February time frame as I collect all the items that I need.

This response may bring in some comments,
Matt

[randywebb]

Interesting - maybe the parts are stolen - the missing vertical for the engine # is a big indicator of that. But maybe they aren't.

Sounds like you are following the safest plan re maintenance.

[rusnak]

You can't use DOT 3 brake fluid for "spirited" driving. The specs call for DOT 4. I would stay away from DOT 5 because it sticks to air and makes it hard to bleed the brakes.

There is no point in having the rotors resurfaced or turned. You lose too much material. The discs are designed to be very rigid, which is the reason for the awesome brake performance. Also they are thicker than SC rotors because they are a more effective heat sink. New rotors are cheap enough to replace them rather than hold on to them. Same for bearings, grease, pads, and brake fluid.

If you break the lines, you can sometimes get air in there that a power bleeder can't get out. If this happens, you need a helper to pump the pedal, hold it down while you open a bleed valve. The helper should use enough pedal pressure to open the brake valve. Start with the right rear, then left rear, right front, then left front. Re-fill the brake fluid reservoir after each caliper if you're not using a power bleeder.

I would try to replace the piston seals and dust seals on the calipers if they're not leaking and the pistons are not corroded. If the calipers are too far gone, I'd buy new ones rather than rebuilt ones. You just dont know what you're buying when you get rebuilt calipers.

Also, after repacking the bearings, re-check the front bearing adjustment after about 40-50 miles.