911 Engine Drop Made Easy?

I need to drop my 78 SC engine to get to the flywheel seal (argh!). I have read the engine drop procedure on this site, and have taken the engine and trans out as a unit before. My question is: Are there any problems associated with taking just the engine (and not the trans) out? Every shop that I have spoken with says that it is better to take the whole assembly (engine and trans) out, rather than just the engine. I think the factory manual also says the whole deal needs to come out.

Any comments or other real world experience on this would be appreciated!

Brian

Taking the engine out only, can stress the trans mounts, the input shaft, and actually takes longer.

What is there extra to remove? Eight cv bolts and a few trans mount bolts and electrical connections? Disconnecting the trans on the ground is a lot easier than trying to do it in the car....

Well, its 12 CV bolts instead of 8, but I think I agree with you that it is easier and safer to just drop the whole thing. I think that is what I will do. Thanks for the input!

Brian

One thing I considered, and I've never done either, is that I will have to manage the weight with not all the 'right' platforms trollys etc. Is this not an issue? I defer to the vast experience of most of you,

Oh, its actually no problem managing the weight just using a floor jack. Once you learn the "balance point", one person can easily drop the engine, but it helps to have 2.

Special trolleys, etc. are not needed at all.

Brian

[Wayne 962]

Well, if you couldn't imagine, my vote is to only drop the engine. The tranny mounts don't get stressed in the process - they are made of rubber. The only concern is the input shaft to the transmission, and that is covered if you remove the coupler.

You can do it either way, but it's pretty easy to pull the engine out without it attached to the transmission.

-Wayne

Wayne, how easy was it to re-connect the engine and trans with the trans in the car? That is my main concern. The last time that I had the engine and trans out, it was not that easy for me to join the two. I was barely able to get them together enough to get the four nuts started. I think if the trans were still in the car, it would have been impossible for me to rejoin the two.

Thanks!

OK, I've called 4 different shops to see what they do. All 4 said that they would not take down the trans to get to the flywheel seal or clutch. They would follow the procedure as outlined by Wayne, and leave the trans up there. They have all said that as long as you disconnect the shift coupling, there is no problem.

So, I've reversed course again! I think I will try leaving the trans up there. The CV joints are such a hassle, and I'd have to take off the swaybar, etc.

I'll let you know how it goes.

Brian

I reversed course again! I ended up taking the transmission down with the engine. I tried it with the trans in the car, and it did seem to bend the trans mounts. It also was very hard to get the two separated. I'm sure that leaving the trans in the car is a viable way to go, but it just didn't seem to work for me. There isn't all that much more work involved with taking the whole unit down, and it seemed the safer way to go.

The bad part is that there was oil behind the flywheel, but the seal seemed fine (it was only one week old!). I had thought that maybe the spring had come off of the inside of the seal, but it was still in place. I put a new one in since I was there, and I hope that it works better than the last one! What's the deal with getting this thing to seal?

Well, I'll let you know how I do it. Right now I'm looking at those oil lines? Are they about 36 mm or what? Waynes description sez two cresent wrenches...I'm not sure any I have are that big? How 'bout you guys who have done it before?
Ernie

I must confess to using 2 crecent wrenches on the oil fittings. They were actually not that tight and came off easily.

Brian

Just a note - I have a 78 911 Sc and pulled the engine to rebuild it. When I replaced the oil seals, I coated them with gasket sealer around the outer side - this helped with the seals setting - the gasket sealer acts like a lubricant and I havn't had a problem with leaks.

Had to remove the engine again after I installed it - low compression. Found out that the cylinders could be cleaned to remove the glaze - made a big difference in performance second time around.

I think it is easier to pull the engine with the trans. I used a engine hoist on the rear end, and a floor jack under the trans support. Put a Come-a-Long on the back of the hoist near the piston and put a pulley on the hook end and ran the cable through it to the rear engine support with a hook on it. It works great. You can rent a engine hoist from a tool rental store. Also used a furniture dolly that I purchased for about 18.00. Set the engine and trans on this to move it around. Also used the engine hoist with the come-a-long to align the trans to the engine again it worked great. Did all the work myself. Have some pics is anyone is interested in a photo view - Let me know.

Meanwhile, I reupholstered the seats and the rear deck lid. Still have to do the dash. The car runs great - definitely a preformance vehicle.

Steve

Brian,
My engine and Tranny are out. I also reversed at the advise of my Engine rebuilder. He said "oh yeah about an hour longer to take both out...but about 5 hours putting them back"
As it turned out the only tough bolt on the whole project was the 8mm hex drive over the starter. Had it been still in the car it would have been a Bear!
Good luck on yours,
Ernie

As a professional Porsche mechanic, I'm not sure why there is even a debate about separating the engine from the trans. The engine/trans was cleary designed to come out as a unit. Granted, I perform this task quite often, but even when I'm not in a particular hurry I can have the engine/trans out of an SC in well under 2 hours (without air tools). At the track I will pull them out in under an hour. Why is this an issue? I can't believe just pulling the engine is easier, let alone possible in most 911's.

Regarding the lowering of the engine/trans from the car, although I have the factory jack adapter to balance them, I have done it many times with just a simple floor jack. It is tricky to find the balance point, but it doesn't require anything else. I agree, another person helps doing it this way.

Well, I have now taken the engine and transmission out of my 911SC twice, and taken just the engine (leaving the transmission in the car) once, so I have a little experience with both.

I have to say that leaving the transmission in the car is the easier way to go! As long as you use a separate jack under the transmission, there is no problem at all. It is not hard to reach the four nuts holding the engine and the trans together, esp. if you first lower the engine down a bit. Once these are off, you just lower the engine down and pull it off the trans. This is a task that is easily accomplished in 2 hours. Now that I've done it a few times, I'd bet I could get the engine out in an hour.

To me, its alot easier to leave the transmission in the car because you don't have to take the swaybar off, the CV joints, etc. Saves some time, and some messiness with the CV joints. Is also easier because you are dealing with less weight and bulk to lower down and take out from under the car.

This is consistent with MOST professional shops. I called about 5 shops and asked if they would leave the transmission in the car when they were doing a clutch replacement. All 5 said yes, they would leave the trans up there, and remove just the engine. Time is money for them, and they are not going to spend unnecessary time taking the transmission out of the car.

On the other hand, taking the engine and trans out as a unit is not a big deal either, and is a reasonable way to go. It just takes a little more work, which is not really necessary if you only need to remove the engine.

Brian

Brian, please tell me which shops it was that you talked to. Me and the guys I work with had a good laugh about this subject the other day. I counted 24 911s in our shop today...it's all we work on. Please take no offense I really am curious about this. Thanks

I just had the clutch replaced. My mechanic just dropped the engine without the transmission. Real easy afterwards to also work on starter if necessary. I'm amazed to see so many different oppinions from the " pros" themselves !!!

Just out of curiosity...today at work I "dusted off" the factory 911 workshop manual and turned to chapter 1 entitled: Engine removal and installation. The very first sentence (in the whole manual) reads: "The engine and transmission are always removed as a single unit."

I'm sure if you tried hard enough you could figure out a way to replace brake pads without removing the wheel but I'd rather just take the five lugs off.

Have fun guys and remember...911 abuse is a serious problem, I hope we can all work to eradicate it.

Having seen some of Brian's work, I don't think you'll find much abuse there.

I'm not sure what the official manual says about front strut insert replacement, but if you follow Haynes you will have added 2 hours to a 15 minute job. There are short cuts that have no impact on the quality of work done. Compare standard book rates against the time it takes a mechanic to complete a job.

Tim

[This message has been edited by Tim Polzin (edited 12-14-1999).]

Yep, the factory manual says to remove the engine and trans as a unit. The 914 factory manual also says to do the same in a 914, and no one would take a 914 engine out to do a clutch job (at least I hope!).

A few of the pro places that I called to ask, ALL of who told me that they would NOT remove the engine when replacing a clutch, are as follows:

Strasse Automotive, Costa Mesa (949) 645-1928 (been working on 911s at the same location for 25+ years).

Ray Stephens Automotive, Costa Mesa (949) 631--2092 (another long, long time So. Cal Porsche shop).

Scott's Independent Porsche, Anaheim (714) 634-2027 (this guy actually laughed out loud when I asked him if he would drop the transmission to replace the clutch).

DeVito's Porsche, Orange CA (714) 997-0661

Haus of Performance, Costa Mesa (714) 545-2755. This may be a (949) number.

Pelican Parts!

Basically, when I was researching this, I just went through the yellow pages and called every porsche-only or porsche-specialty shop that I could find. I am by nature conservative, and was aware of the language in the factory manual, and probably would not have tried taking just the engine out if I even found ONE professional shop that recommended that I take the entire unit out. The pro shops, however, were unanimous: Time is money and they would not waste the time dropping the trans out when replacing a clutch. They would drop just the engine only. I could not find one pro shop in So. Cal. that said they would take the engine out when replacing a clutch. Its just not necessary. All the shops above probably total 100 years of experience and hundreds, if not thousands, of engine drops. That was good enough for me.

I'm not making this up! I invite you to call them if you don't believe me, I've gone through the trouble of giving you the numbers. Like I said, I have done it both ways, and unless their was a specific reason for getting the trans out of the car, I would drop just the engine.

On the other hand, there is certainly nothing wrong with taking the whole thing out as a unit, and as long as you are getting paid by the hour, and your customers don't mind paying, I see no problem with it.

Brian

[This message has been edited by Brian Kumamoto (edited 12-20-1999).]

[This message has been edited by Brian Kumamoto (edited 12-29-1999).]