Porsche ups their stake in VW, full takeover possible

[jkarolyi]

Just saw this on the news...probably doesn't belong on the tech forum, but not exactly OT, so I'm not sure where else to put it. Certainly an interesting development for the marque:

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/BUSINESS/11/16/porsche.vw.reut/index.html

Is there anyone here who thinks a full Porsche takeover of VW would be a good thing for Porsche? I think it would shift priorities of the company in the wrong direction, even more so than it did when it branched into non-sports car (SUV and soon sedan) business.

[Eric-325I]

Originally posted by jkarolyi
Is there anyone here who thinks a full Porsche takeover of VW would be a good thing for Porsche? I think it would shift priorities of the company in the wrong direction, even more so than it did when it branched into non-sports car (SUV and soon sedan) business.

We could hope that with greater resources and a more stable bottom line they might take more chances and offer a reasonably priced, stripped down, modern-day 70's RS... Or not.

[jkarolyi]

Didn't think about it that way. Would be really neat if Porsche could have the means (and the VW parts bin) to create a Lotus Elise competitor in the spirit of the old 914.

[Eric-325I]

Funny you mention the Elise, that's exactly what I was thinking as I wrote my post earlier... :-)

Eric

[sig_a]

I want a new 911 like this. Spartan 997 coupe, 3.2 liter dry sump @ 260 BHP, 5 speed G50, 16" forged Fuchs, no A/C, no sun roof, no leather, light weight and durable interior, 5 gauges, 2 speaker radio w/ipod port, no back seat, no digital gizmos, manual windows, manual mirrors. robust brakes, 50/50 track-to-street suspension, 2200 pounds, fire extinguisher, roll cage optional. Aegean Blue only. $50000 USD.

[pieterk]

Originally posted by jkarolyi
Didn't think about it that way. Would be really neat if Porsche could have the means (and the VW parts bin) to create a Lotus Elise competitor in the spirit of the old 914.

Interesting idea, but I'm not sure there's much in the current VW parts bin that lends itself to light weight. Audi's even worse.

Which makes me wonder what this deal would do for Audi too.

[Porsche virgin]

If I thought the move would improve VW and Audi's build quality, I'd be all for it, but I doubt that would happen.

[pieterk]

What's wrong with VAG's build quality? It doesn't seem much different than any other car I've been in, and it's certainly better than a lot of the less expensive imports and almost all American cars I've sat in or driven (a friend picked me up in a new Mustang convertible a year ago; I was appalled at how cheap it felt).

My VW is wonderful. Then again, it was a limited edition with a fancier interior and built in Germany, so maybe it's not a fair comparison.

[JeremyD]

The best way for Porsche AG to win LeMans and Sebring is to buy Volkswagon (and mostly Audi Motorsports)

[quaz]

+10 on the build quality.

My 2004 Jetta GLI is an absolute POS. Squeaking brakes, bad coil packs, surging turbo, bad MAF, blown out fuel pump gasket (that stunk), more rattles than a Saturn, broken motor mount and all in less than 15K miles. It is damn fun to drive though.

My 2005 Golf TDI has been better, but still has had many rattles and squeaks.

Don't get me started on my 97 A4.

Now my 71 911, that is reliable (had to throw in some 911 content)

[81 911 SC]

agreed, I find my 25 year old 911 to be built 10x better than my 2000 A4.

[bpoteat]

Originally posted by pieterk
What's wrong with VAG's build quality?

My wife bought a 2001 Jetta and now I'm driving it to work. As far as brand new cars go, in recent history I've bought a toyota tercel (recent is relative, right?), a Highlander, an Acura Integra, and have immediate family members with a couple of different Lexus (plural = Lexi?), another Jetta, a Passat, two Hondas, and another Toyota. I'm leaving out the higher end mercedes and such since they aren't really comparable.

EACH of the three VWs in this group have had more problems than all of the others combined. I put over 100,000 miles on the crappy tercel without a single issue...not one. And it was a beater and I only changed the oil about once every 20k or so.

My wife's Jetta has been driven no differently than any of the other cars and has had issues from interior stuff breaking, falling off, and peeling to engine issues such as a CEL that I've spent well over $1000 bucks on recently in different visists (and that's WITH buying the parts wholesale myself) and it STILL isn't fixed. The car has 60k miles on it and I wouldn't trust it to drive 100 miles and get me back. I changed the water pump recently and the one I pulled out had brittle plastic impellors with cracks starting all over them! Of course, the replacement (not from VW) had metal impellors as anyone with a brain (or not trying to save 50 cents per car) would've done in the first place. The worst part is that when I talk to the dealer about it, they act like that's normal. Like why SHOULDN'T I expect stuff to fall off and start failing at 60k miles.

I could go on and on and on, but I think my opinion from a few years of first hand experience has been made.

[Porsche virgin]

The kick in the butt regarding VW's quality is that I would GLADLY pay a couple thousand dollar premium to drive a VW over a Japanese brand...IF it was reliable!

My friend had a TDI Jetta (late 90s vintage, I think). All four power windows died at least once, as did the sunroof. All in the open position, of course.

[Lorenfb]

You can't really do better than some Japanese products.

Example: '89 Nissan Pathfinder V6 - 430K miles

Original engine - 1 quart of oil every 2K miles
Original trans & diff

Parts:
3 - clutchs
brakes - every 90K
timing belt & water pump - every 75K
front & rear crank seal
tires - every 90K

The VWs, BMW, M/B of the '90s I get involved troubleshooting are all "junk".
That also goes for the Porsches of the same years. My '88 3.2 is much
better overall that any of the 964/993/996 from a standpoint of reliability.

That's what happens when car manufactures get caught up in "bling", e.g.
Nav systems, multiple climate controls, etc, versus a reliable means of
transportation.

[pieterk]

Everyone's complaints about VW's build quality registered and understood. I don't doubt it I guess. My R32 is the only VW/Audi I've ever owned or even driven extensively, and in just over two years and 25,000 miles, the only problem I've had is that my CD player stopped working, and that just happened two weeks ago. Other than that, it's as good as new. No creaks, no leaks, no strange noises or falling apart components, nor rattles or any kind of tactile wear that betrays cheapness.

I've also heard very few stories of other R32 owners having problems either. Then again, as I said, it's made in Germany and was a limited edition. YMMV.

FWIW, I don't really see myself buying another VW or Audi any time in the future, unless I get rich and can afford half a dozen or more cars. Then maybe, just maybe, I'd consider an S4, mainly for "civilized" drives in town with the doddering relatives from New Rochelle and Miami, and for big money nights out at Valentino. That's how little I've come to think of Audis: they're Lincoln Town Cars for German car fans who refuse to buy American road yachts.

How that company can build an all-conquering Le Mans prototype and willfully, repeatedly refuse to introduce a sports car with even a third of the R8's or R10's capabilities is heartbreaking. They could destroy Lotus with their deep pockets and technology. But, they refuse. The new R8 doesn't cut it. A Honda S2000's motor has a higher bhp/liter ratio, and it costs $31,000, weighs 600 lbs less, and I'm willing to bet is more fun and involving to drive. Oh, and per the above comments, it won't break. I want one!

[k9handler]

I want a VW as my daily driver when I return to the US, so my 911 can become a track car! VW and Audi are going in the right direction, and I think this can only help.

[Lil Black Car]

Folks also need to remember that a lot of those Audis's and VW's ya'll are talking about are from the era during the wall and right after when they were trying to get going, and then consider how far they have come since then. Name one American company that can claim the same. Sad to say but I don't think you can.
We, as Americans seem only to be able to build road yachts. When I was in high school I had a 76' Pontiac Bonneville Coupe with a 400 cid V8 and turbo 400 auto tranny, that got 20mpg, hauled ass and weighed a LOT!!! Today the Bonneville is a lot smaller, less economical and drives like a nut-less wonder. I love my country,but I cannot imagine buying another American car. If my wife wants another one it is going to be a 5 series or a A6.
We better hope they don't try to get into NASCAR...