How certain is valve guide failure in 3.2s?
 

Ok this is really becoming an issue for me as I look at cars.

I am considering 87-89 Carreras. A number of them are
selling locally for betweeen 55 -83k miles for about $24k
-25k. Then there some around $15k with 150-160k miles
but a top-end or complete engine rebuild with better
valve guides in place. There are also some cars for above
15k with NO engine rebuild and/or no history.

I don't want to be stuck with a bill of $8-10k on this car
since I need to take out a loan to buy it. So I need to know
just severe is the valve guide issue, how certain is it, and
when does it typically happen. What people are saying is--
and I know that some of this may be untrue but people
(sellers) are saying this to me, any/all of the below
assertations:

the PRO-"yes it is an issue people"
-it is a certainty that a top-end is needed because from
factory the valve guides are guaranteed to fail.
-it could happen say < 100k, but you need to start worrying
about it between 100-150k, and esp. as you get to 200k.
-unless you want a bill for 8k, make sure to buy one that has
been done.
-there is no way to predict it from leakdown/ compression
-some indicators (but not guaranteed) are fouled plugs,
and the same car suddenly burning more oil than usual

the NEGATIVE "no it is not an issue people"
-I switched to synthetic oil say and it hasnt
affected me, and probably never will,
because of the ligher, synthetic oil
-It only affected a small number of cars (not mine).

I'm confused. Please help. It will help me decide what to
do with my buying decision....

THks Marvin

Sounds like you have done a good deal of research already and have a pretty clear picture of the issue.

My take is that every model have their weaknesses, but most cars are sound. One can only take so much precaution - then the rest is up to faith/luck.

With a proper PPI done on a car that does not smoke excessively and does not drink large quantities of oil and the history reveals a good maintenance schedule - it is anybodies guess what is going to happen.

This probably does not help, but it is my humble opinion.

Good luck!

There are several simple visual tests that can make you aware of a valve guide problem. The 1st would be to have someone start the car up and you stand behind it to look for the tell tale smoke blowing out the exhaust. The motor will smoke MORE if it's cold. The next is to check the exhaust tip for ANY oil residue. Do this before you start the motor up cold if possible. The exhaust will be black and should have a some what chacky feel if the motor is tight. If you feel just a little oil film than take a look at the motor up on a rack and look for the slightest weepage of oil from the gaskets. ALWAYS get a PPI from a Porsche shop that deals frequently with the year of car you're looking at. I don't prefer the newer dealers because they usually deal with much new cars and they generally don't have the people that know older cars.
The last 911 I bought was an '86 and it had 135K on the clock and here's what I based my purchase on. The owner had a 3-ring binder that had complete records from day one. He had eveything from the original stamp manual through the last service that was done to the car prior to my purchase. I put it on a rack and looked it over for my piece of mind and than drove it pretty hard for about an hour. I drove in traffic on the highway and even took it to a mall parking lot to check out reverse. I promptly stroked the check and drove it 2,200 miles in 2-1/2 days without a hic-up.
Do your homework, drive the car untill you're convinced that it's right for you and don't get caught up with your emotions.
Happy hunting,
Steve Ed

I think it would be best to buy the car with the assumption that it will need the job done, if it has not already been done. Also, there is a difference between replacing the valve guides and a rebuild. Just having the valve guides done and replacing some/all of the valves will NOT cost 8-10k. Also, if you remove the engine, take the heads off and take them to a mechanic you'll save a lot of money.

not sure how much I can add....
I bought an 89 3.2 and didn't really know that much about this issue or any others...but I do now.
there are several ways to check the car re. valve guides, pull the headers and look to see how much oil has or is being burned, get the motor hot and listen for ticking noises assuming the valves are adjusted properly, have a mechanic lift the valves and check for movement....
if all of this checks out and the oil consumption is low e.g. <1qt/900miles then you should be ok....start a savings account of $300/mo.

I got my car with 47k miles and it already had the issue, no maint. records...

depending on the knowledge and skill of the mechanics that have been in the engine before now...you will probably have to do a valve guide job at some point unless it has been done before..

I completely rebuilt the top end along with clutch and just about everything that could be done without splitting the case at 70k miles.

the car runs great now..I feed it 15-50 M1

I would agree with 889911coupe, assume any 911 will need some valve/engine work if it hadn't been done and documented by the PO. Even cars with low miles. Some get lucky around here and have bought cars with no problems for years but I would also take into account the other extreme as well.

In my search I looked at a lot of cars with 80-130K miles and a few had no head/valve work but drove well and had no smoke. A few even had decent leakdowns. After spending $$ for PPI's and getting nowhere I ended up negotiating down on an '88 that needed a top end but had perfect paint, interior and a new clutch etc.

In the end I'll still spend towards $20K (they all cost that anyway), but I will have a car that has all the work done by a reputible shop that I know and should be good for another 100K miles.

I thought they fixed the problem later in production. Nevertheless, my advice would be to buy one with higher miles that obviously was cared for and has lots of records. You save so much money over a low-mileage car. If I had a do-over, I wouldn't pay a premium for "low" miles.

I'm of the opinion that the Carrera worn valve guide issue is overblown. Certainly, some percentage (I have no idea of the actual number) of the Carrera's were produced with 'inferior' valve guides, but too assume that all of them fall into this category is short sighted. As others have stated, oil consumption is the primary indicator of worn valve guides, and although there are exceptions, most Carreras will exhibit this characteristic say in the 60-90K mile range. If you purchase a well kept example with say 100K miles, that does NOT mean that a valve job is on the horizon, it probably means that you're good for many, many miles of smiles. On the flip side, if you purchase a Carrera with say 40K miles on her, you might not have reached the point where the issue typically surfaces. In my case, my car had 46K on her when I purchased her (now around 65K), and doesn't use any oil to speak of, so I 'think' I'm in the clear :)...time will tell. Every era of 911s have their 'issues', but SCs and Carreras are as close to 'bulletproof' as you can get for 20+ year old cars.

Valve guides on any 911 motor will wear. There is nothing that can be done to prevent it. I have an 81 and the top end was rebuilt 25-30k ago and the exhaust vavle guides are already worn and the car is burning some oil. I'll end up rebuilding the motor again next year and doing some upgrades but I know later on down the road this process will need to be done again....

Very true, but the 'bad batch' that went into 'some' Carreras make this the topic of this thread...

Marvin, for what its worth, I'll share my experience with you on this topic. I bought a 1987 with 140,000 miles on it in July from a neighbor and spoke to the local mechanic (who worked on the car the past few years) at length before buying....no PPI or leakdown test....I just trusted the mechanic and felt I had enought cushion in my price ($8k) to cover future repairs without getting upside down. In any event, he told me that the valve guides are worn and will need to be replaced as some time, not necessarily right now. Valve guide wear is progressive (i.e. they fail/wear over time....not overnight). Smoke on start-up will get progressively worse and consumption will increase.....you have to determine when to pull the trigger and replace the guides. In my case, he told me that I could resonably expect to drive the car for another 50,000 miles before having to replace the guides and to expect a cost of $5,000. My oil consumption is 1 qt per 600-700 miles which concerned me at first but from comments on this forum I'm not so worried anymore. Some say that 1 qt per 1000 miles is "normal" for a newly rebuild engine but you'll see opinions all over the board. I have a little smoke on start-up and no visible smoke when warmed up.

Good luck.

If I recall Poly Bronze are the best material type for valve guides.... and yes you are correct I was making more of a general statement

It might be helpful if you were to indicate how much you plan to drive it. If it is a low mileage per year, why would you worry about it?

my guess is that around 20% have PREMATURE valve guide failure.
check head studs too.

Marvin,

some thoughts:

Yes, the problem will not show with a leakdown or compression test.

It will be apparent in oil consumption, yes, but you have only the seller's word on this. I had (as you know) a severe guide problem on one cyl, but my exhaust tip was not coated with oil.

Plugs will be a good indicator of this condition. Pull them and have a look. If oil is getting into the cylinder in any appreciable quantity, the plug will be black and fouled. Be as suspicious of brand new plugs as fouled ones. They should have a couple thousand miles on them to be a good indicator of the cylinder's condition.

Very experienced mechanics will be able to estimate valve guide wear by the amount of radial play in the valve, so it is checkable to a degree by the right shop.

I don't think running with synthetic oil etc. will help slow\control this issue to any appreciable extent. Not all Carreras seem to suffer from it, but even Bruce Anderson did not hazard a guess as to which years are more likely to exhibit it IIRC.

Best advice is a higher mileage car that's already had the top end done.

ianc

I think, although I may be wrong, that at least one of the contributing factors is the climate you live in. I own an 88 cabriolet, and up here in Canada where its cooler, it doesn't seem to be as much of an issue. My mechanic claims that its the cars in hot climates that seem to have the most probllems with valve guides. If he's right, than cars in the southern states would have the most problems. Just my two cents ...

I believe the 993's are having some valve guide wear problems as well. Just the nature of the air cooled Porsche beast, live with it or pass. I personaly would have passed on my '87 if knew. Maybe a Z06 Corvette?

Anyone close enough to kill the heretic? :)

I think the biggest contributing factors are heat and lack of maintenance. Cars from hotter climates will obviously run hotter, accelerating the issue. A good PPI will really only tell you if the car has been maintained. Leak-down #'s aside you should be prepared to spend the cost of a top end rebuild sooner or later. Another test for valve guide wear is to rev the car to 5K and quickly let off the gas pedal. This creates a high vacuum situation and worn guides will emit a puff of smoke from the exhaust. I have seen this myself on a 3.2. Not on my car (yet). I'm with Ianc - a higher mileage car with a top end already done is a good value.

Not trying to be a jerk or brag but, these are expensive cars. If you need a loan to buy one, make sure the loan includes enough cash to make inevitable repairs. I saved until I could pay cash and have carried out small repairs myself. When the time comes to rebuild I have cash.

Good luck in your search. I love my G50 car and will rebuild the motor when the time comes. Or maybe I'll get a 3.6

My previous car before my 993 was an 88 Carrera that I bought with 158K on the clock. A top end had been done @ 130K by the previous owner and by the time I sold it after 3 years it still was using a negligible amount of oil (about 1 quart/2K miles). I bought my 993 with 34K on the clock and am now approaching 60K miles after 3 1/2 years. I still haven't seen a CEL, but know it could come at any time. I am going to drive the car until it happens then deal with it. The problem seems to have come from a decision by Porsche to use softer guides. It is probably overstated to some degree because I know of 993's on Rennlist with over 100K miles and no CEL, but it will happen sooner or later on all 3.2 Carrera's and 993's with OBD II. The 95 993's don't see the problem as much because they don't have the dreaded Check Engine Light, but they still need to deal with smoking and excessive oil consumption eventually because of the guides. There are better guides available now and if my 993 needs a top end that is what I will do.

Hey thanks guys - wow, what a lot of responses - thanks! It does seem that while there is no definative answer, and some exceptions, the preponderance of evidence indicates that there less risk (and only an upside) to buying a car that has a known top-end rebuild performed (assuming of course the shop is reputable etc).

The car I drove yesterday had a rebuild done for 8k. It also had a K&N air filter and I could tell that the engine was a really, really free-revving and happy to rev, more so than other similar G-50/3.2s. Records were available, and they had also done some sort of reinforment to the G-50 tranny a while back too. So I think I'm leaning in that direction moreso than the semi-garage queen with no rebuild costing 10k more.

Thanks again! Marvin.

Just kidding, unless I could have an L88.

I was personally involved with the rebuild of an 89 and 87 3.2's that both had significant guide wear. One had 50k and the other 100k miles. Since these engines were being enlarged, a valve guide job was only natural. Since then, my car can run all season with adding no oil, where it would burn a quart every4-500 miles and easily 1-2 over a track weekend. Still, my car had no signs of performance loss. I'm not sure how bad it has to get before you actually start seeing an issue with drivability or if can cause any other major problems. If not, you could just keep adding oil and drive it.

I might add that the knowledge that your engine is not burning the very substance that gives it life is reassuring.:D

Compared to most other cars 20+ years old, the 911 is probably less prone to problems. And as you say, not much point in posting about everything that work like a charm, so naturally most post address those problems that do turn up.

Go ahead - get one for yourself. There is no substitute! ;)

"I'm also planning to get an 83-87 Porsche."

83 is the last of the SC 84-86 is the 3.2 with 915 tranny and 87' is the first year of the G-50. Sounds like you are all over the map. 78-89 share the same basic body style and can all be made to run circles around modern cars.

I don't think they are prone to having problems and it is exactly these types of threads that malign the absolutely stellar reputation these cars deserve.

A Porsche 911 is a high performance daily driver you can:

take to the track
autocross
long distance cross country drive
work on yourself
admire for the rest of your life
etc.

Try that with any other brand.

I didn't see this thread until now. Lots of good points here, and all over the field. So, I might as well throw my .02 in.

I recently bought a very high mileage car. I didn't get a good a deal as 8K, but that's not the norm, far from it. As pointed out, prices will go easily over 20K. I paid 11K and got some good assets to work with, namely a brand new distributor, new clutch job with the upgrade, and a bit more like brand new tires.

At this point, it has to be pointed out that there is more to a car than the engine. A 99 point car is nice to have even with a dead motor. Paint and the like is expensive.

All that having been said and considered, I got complete records for the car. I studied the records and noticed a recommendation for valve work at just over 110K miles. Maybe it should have been done before that. But, nothing was done, ever. The car came to me with 235,000 miles!!

Nothing done. Now, to be sure, it needs some work. It blows smoke on start up, uses oil and has a couple of "cold" cylinders. I bought the car with the expectation of doing the necessary work, whatever that turns out to be.

So, I'll make my conclusion about the cars, which won't work for many, especially the anal. The cars are stout and will survive many years with good to excellent care. They will even run beyond when they shouldn't and need repair badly.

It's nice to have a show toy, I've had a dozen or so. I'm getting tired of waxing the bottom sides of cars at my age of 61. I'm also starting to view life as finite and care a little less about what's going down around me. The prospective purchaser of any used car needs to do a little soul searching to see where this all fits in your deal.

A thought on this business of buying the perfect car. On the Net, we hear it all and quickly. The guy that got rear ended on his way to work, the guy who just got his car out of the paint shop and assembled to drive across country only to hit a massive boulder in the night virtually totaling the car. There's more. You know there is.

You go 'round once an some get short changed in so many different ways. I can't be bothered any more with oil or smoke. If it blows up, c'est la vie.

It had it's chance yesterday redlining many times and hitting 130 at one point. Buy what your heart tells you to buy if you're buying a 911 to play with. I've already had 11K worth of fun in this ol' Ragamuffin. Seriously. You don't buy this stuff at an amusement park or by playing some video crap.

If I had to give advice, I'd say get the car with the most money spent by the last owner. I got some of that, just didn't get the valve job. ;).

since valve guides are the main question here. how much is a valve guide job on a 1986 3.2, and is that considered a top end job? i just added a quart after my first 1k miles of owning the car. starts like a champ and no smoke at all.

Good points. For the record my bimmer 325e BMW from 86 has
250k on it, and it blows some white smoke on startup, but runs
fine otherwise.

BTW how long is a top-end suppossed to last. I know of one 911
for sale that has 204k miles on it, top-end done at 90k miles, and
its still going strong..

Milt;

I am right with you philosophically speaking on so many points.

hi8ha:

My 87 Carrera has 165,xxx miles on it with no work on the engine or trans. I am confident that it will go to 250,xxx miles before needing anything major. These cars are the very definition of stout IMHO.

Mike

That would depend a lot on many variables, the worst being "while I'm in there." ;)

Labor on heads runs a bit less than a grand with most of the parts unless you need a bunch of valves. This is the outside labor. A new set of pistons, cylinders, rings, etc is at least 3K. so if yours are in spec, you can leave them. Labor to R&R an engine and do a top end job can be as little as a grand, but don't count on too many shops being to come in at that fugure.

The only way to do something like this for less than a mortgage, is with your time and tools.

I have a 3.2L which will need a top end some day. It has ~125K-ish on the clock. A bunch of my friends also have 3.2L's

It's luck of the draw as to "when", but let me put it this way. Mods aside, the Carrera is a $20K car. You either buy one for $20K that has had a top-end done, or one in the high teens that has not, and has symptoms of needing so. People might argue with that, but it's true.

Oh yeah, then figure another $5K over two years for replacement of wear and tear items. All of this, assuming you do your own work. That aside, the car is a blast, and really isn't going to be losing any value. You can't say that of other cars. I consider selling my '78 911 (w/ a 3.2L), and my '98 Crown Vic all the time. Both are reliable, paid off, and won't lose value. Any money I put in is for personal enjoyment, or to drive the car longer. That $$ put, in, I might add, is significantly less than any car payment.

Just buy the car you think is the best, and enjoy it! :D (Don't buy the $20K Carrera that needs a top-end ;))

read this first...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=290255&highlight=valve+ stem+seals

I'm not burning oil yet.....but I'm still planning on a top end one day....or a 993 :)

Jason
88 911 CAB

I would not call an air cooled 911 of any vintage fragile. The Carrera's, in particular, are actually very well known as being about the most robust of the entire bunch.

Cars and their components always eventually wear out and let's remember that these cars are anywhere from 17 to 41 years old. They've been on the road for a long time now. How many other cars do you see out there that are that old (that have not been restored and then parked as garage queens)? Very few. And remember that relative to most other auto manufacturers, Porsche only built a very, very tiny number of these cars. That there are so many left on the road today that are still being used as daily drivers is a good indication that these cars are in fact quite robust when taken as a whole.

Remember what Milt said. His records indicated that the valve guides were in need of repair at 110,000 miles and yet his car still runs strong at 235,000 miles with the same valve guides.

Another example is Alex's (PRE H2O) '74 has over 300,000 miles on her and just finally got a new engine. 32 years on one engine is simply amazing in my book. Here's a pic of his car. He drives this car daily too! (Alex, I hope you don't mind me showing off your 32 year old beauty.)
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1164391226.jpg

Here's the engine that replaced his 300,000 miler.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1164391296.jpg

...and no one has said a word about Dilavar head studs...

...or DME relays.. ;)

Man... I can't believe it.....today I was on the phone with
2 911 owners with 87-89 Carreras. One of them seemed
quite knowledgeable about Porsches, more than me and
I've done a lot of surfing on these boards for the last
several years. One guy has an 88 with 94k, and the other
guy has an 87 with 55k. The guy with the 55k reiterated
that he has had all the factory service etc and not had any
issues so it doesn't need a top-end (or valve guides). The
guy with the 88 said it affected a few cars and is blown
out of proportion and treated as "gospel" by the magazines
and that except for a few select people, to have anyone
open up your engine and do a top-end is worse than if the
thing is never opened /touched at all. He said in the worst
case you could just have the valve guides themselves done
themselves, but I think above in the thread we determined
that it sort of ends up evolving into a top-end "while your
in their thing anyway". Meanwhile my guy with the recent
top-end rebuild on the 160k mile car he is selling called me
to lower his price some more because he wants to really
sell soon. A year ago I made a huge car mistake with the
wife by overruling her and gettting a parts car for my bimmer
which is still sitting on our driveway--bottom line... this whole
issue with the valve guides is killing me...as they say in chess
I've only got one more move and if its the wrong one... its
game over..

My engine has about 223,000 miles. No valve guide replacement. In fact, nothing major. I pulled the spark plugs the other day and they are perfect (they are NOT original). It is possible for 3.2 engines to last a very long time, if maintained correctly. BTW, my engine pulls hard, but I am sure that it is tired and would benifit from a rebuild, so would my tranny, but I can't afford that at the moment.

Dave

been watching this and heres my 2 cents. bought car w/110k. asked P.O. about valve guides. said no problems. didnt get alot of prior service papers. the actual owner had died and was dealing w/estate and shop consigned to sell car. since i worked for porsche years ago, i knew what i wanted. i also knew what to look out for. noticed leak rear of engine. other than that dry underneath.

bought car, repaired 8th journal seal, have thrown wads of money at it to make trackable.

have run the SNOT out of it like no tommorow at PIR and FIREBIRD raceways. have found 2 nylocks leaking on lower drivers valve cover(fixed), and now after last track session have found another leak on crankcase breather.

smokes a little at start up on cold day, EATS BARELY any oil, and runs like a raped ape with just a K & N filter and single in/out GHL and cat bypass.

114k miles on it now. 1987 manufactured nov.1986. its now 20 years old!

think the whole valve guide issue is overblown. if your not creating a smoke screen behind you on the highway or the track, not consuming gobs of oil.....................what me worry? and even if i was...............CANT WAIT TO REBUILD ENGINE and EEEEKKK every ounce of power we legally can, on dyno, conforming to pca/scca showroom stock rules!

just think of the money spent if you were into say....horses, or top fuel dragsters, or top fuel boats, or baja trophy trucks or class 1 cars, or airplanes!

its a 3.2 glorified/on steroids bug motor w/a BULLET PROOF bottom end that really should never be opened unless you want to find nothing wrong w/it. and the MAJORITY OF PEOPLE on here can attest that if they had to do it again..............they would have NEVER cracked open the bottom end unless something drastic had occurred.

its a crap shoot...........some of these motors are destined to become junk..............and some are destined for glory! i figure that mine treats me so well at the track that it DESERVES an oil change each and everytime it goes to track. screw the 3000 mile change.............i'll be nice to it, because its been nice to me!

There has been rumors that too frequent oil changes actually lower the wear protection qualities..i.e. the oil needs a little run in period to obtain it´s max protection properties...

I am just saying..don´t know if it is true.. ;)