rebuild or 3.6 swap?

[ludovicbreger]

I just made an appointment for a rebuild.
It is meant to start as a top end but may well end up as a full rebuild. At least we will split the case to see what is going on.
Then I just saw a 3.6 with 50K on it for $6500 on ebay. Is it a reasonable price? With that kind of mileage, what is the chance of having a problem within the next
50K miles or so? How much should I expect to pay to fit it in my 88 Carrera?
How much can I get for a used 3.2 that clearly needs a top end?

How do 911 that have had a 3.6 upgrade drive in general? I really want to keep the deep Carrera roar but my experience driving 993 is that the engine is much quieter. Can an exhaust upgrade help recover some of the lost music?

Thanks guys.

[Kevin Stewart]

I have had several problems with my 3.6 conversion, over if if I could get it squared away it would be a really nice upgrade, they are incredibly fast, unbelievable sound, drives and handles the same as with the old 3.0 just tons faster,

several people on this bbs are going to insist that you have to have upgraded brakes and sway bars etc etc, its not true if you intend to drive it on the street, if your gonna track the car you may need to upgrade but probably would have to with the motor you have now anyway, just ask them to answer from thier experience only and not hear say,

have the motor checked out, 6500 is pretty much what they are going for, you can expect to pay between 10000-14000 depending if you do the work, and what kind of shopping for parts your willing to do, I dont think you would regret it, your 3.2 is still worth something you could sell, Do a search on 3.6 conversion part 1 etc, Kevin

Unless it's from an ultra-reliable seller, assume that ebay 3.6 will need a rebuild as well. There's no way to verify that is correct milage or how the motor was treated for that 50K.

[Moses]

I really think a 3.6 can be done at a reasonable cost. Your car is an 88, so you already have a Carerra cooler in the fender. You could add an inexpensive Setrab or other cooler in front and switch to a 930 style valance and avoid the cost of going to full glass bumpers.

I have not yet tracked my car, but my stock SC brakes are perfectly adequate for spirited street driving. Stock suspension is fine if you don't want to spend the $ on the upgrade.

What will a rebuild cost? The 3.6 cost may be closer than you think and all that power is a lot of fun!

[Chuck Moreland]

The good news is you have several good options. The bad news is they are all expensive.

The cheapest by far will be a topend rebuild. It won't do anything for power, but you'll have a good running reliable car for a long time. And a stock 3.2 is no slouch! But with all the money you save, you can easily put on a set of SSIs and get a nice performance boost.

A 3.6 swap is a sure way to a reliable high HP powerplant. Your '88 is better equipped than most early cars for this swap since you've already got an external cooler (though you'll need more), carrera brakes and a G50. You can even use your carrera exhaust.

The down side is you still have a used engine. You will have to get it CARB certified, you will need added oil cooling, and your car is no longer original.

On the other hand, a full rebuild of your 3.2 delivers a brand new engine that should be good for 300k miles. The 3.6 is a huge power increase over an early 2.0-3.0 engine, but the gap from a 3.2 is narrower. You can do some performance enhancements to further narrow the gap. How about punching it up to high compression, 3.4 liters, and twin plugs? Combine that with a decent exhaust and you have a potent package.

[k9handler]

go for the 3.6 if you can afford it...but make sure of it before you start, and expect to hit a few snags but in the end it's worth it!

[ludovicbreger]

I think it's wiser to forget about the 3.6 transplant. The last thing I want it to be at risk of needing another rebuild.

What would the 3.4 or 3.5 upgrade cost and take me to in term of HP? I really need a street legal car BTW.

For those of you who did the upgrade. what does it feel like?

Oh, also. The exciting thing is that Jerry Woods is doing the work. I figured out it would not cost that much more relative to other shops, and the upside is that it can only help the resale value. I wish I could do the work myself but frankly, it's out of the question.

[rdane]

A 3.4 is an easy rebuild. A few things like exhaust will make the car very responsive but don't think they'll pass CA smog.

After a bunch of research and all the ifs and opinions involved I decided on a 3.4 rebuild on my case. The general number quoted from members of this board that do 3.6 swaps commercially was 20K$. And no one was willing or able to make a hard quote to get an engine in my car with a guarantee or car fax on the used engine.

I may put 20K into my hot rod engine rebuild and a engine management system. But I will have a new engine and no if or opinions and I could have done a plan jane version 3.4 for right at 10K$.

For my use, which is a majority of the time street driving, I doubt I'll notice any difference between a 3.4 and a 3.6. The dyno will tell me a lot when we are done.

I also now know exactly what is going into my car......besides still having the original matching #s of car body and engine.

[Kevin Stewart]

rdane, i think you are off quit a bit on the 20k thing, most people here are 10-12.5k i believe, Kevin

[rdane]

Originally posted by Kevin Stewart
rdane, i think you are off quit a bit on the 20k thing, most people here are 10-12.5k i believe, Kevin

Kevin, I have shopped for an engine and most the shops involved here that are local to me (Seattle/Portland), to have that engine installed. All I needed was an engine, '95 to '97 vario ram...no brakes or oil cooling. TWENTY GRAND was the number that I was quoted by Rennsport as an example or a 3.6 Vario ram and instalation.

I was discussing a 3.6 vario ram (costs around 9/12 K depending on engine and milage) not a worn out 3.6 964 engine which cna be had for 6K$.

[Larry Harris]

Kevin is probably correct. $12,000 should do it quite nicely. You probably could spend more, or maybe a little less. I want to do a 3.4 from a 3.2 and tentatively have budgeted 10,000.

I had a 2.7 in the past and the studs pulled. I ran across a correctly done 2.7 euro with 20,000 miles for $4200.00 and my old engine.

Good hunting

Larry H.

[Kevin Stewart]

rdane, somebodies getting in your pocket book, you coul ship the car to instant-g.com and back get the conversion done and still have 5 grand in your pocket, Kevin

[rdane]

Like to know where you guys are buying 3.6 '95 to '97 993 vario ram motors for under 9K delivered.

I voted with my dollars when I was quoted 20K.

But I have also shopped the better vario rams and they don't give them away in any condition. Ask for a engine guarantee or a car fax to varify the mileage and some of these guys choke.

Here is lane's ad
"As many of you already know, i have a 1997 993 3.6 engine fs including everything. Patrickmotorsports.com has everything you need to plug this engine into an early car for $1500 including brain and harness addaptors, flywheel to mate to a 915 trani etc. Will sell this 14,500 mile motor for $9500 and including shipping in that."

"rednine":i have 2 engine coming inbound, One is here and has been for 5 years and is in current use, the other is still on a boat from south africa.
the one that is for sale now is a 1991 with 41K, that was sold with 20K on it 5 years ago that came from germany, and was put into service and has now got 41K from a very please customer going to upgrade again, this engine is a solid runner and as nice as they come, dry,sound,excellent engine maybe even overly maintained if there is such a thing. it is complete and has a B&B header set up that goes with it, may even have the conversion parts to make it complete for a early car. $6800+ship."

Alans's:FS: Complete 3.6 engine (64k miles)

$4800, that's for a compete 3.6 engine out of a late (1993) C4.So if its around $400 plus $4800, that's an estimated $5200 delivered for a 3.6 engine.

Jfaw:
As professionally removed from my 97' 993 911 Porsche, Complete Varioram Engine From Intake to CAT, with Wiring Harness, Motoronic/ECU. Engine # M6423-64U This engine has 50k miles on it and has known history from new. It is in perfect working order with no issues. This engine will fit earlier 911 and 964 Porsches, Email me josephfawsitt@sbcglobal.net if you have any questions. Buyer pays actual costs, $9,900.

Jim's:For Sale: 3.6 Motor, excellent condition
From a wrecked '90 C4 with 46K miles.
Motor ran well before and after the wreck.
Comes complete with Fuel Injection, FI wiring, fuel pump and Tach.
Great motor for that conversion.
Asking $5500

dkj: bought a c-4 in 1990. in 1995 i bought an extra motor and put the original motor into storage in a crate. that was at 15k miles. i kept the original motor as a spare. i do not need it. it is in very good condition, now available for 6.5k $. email - djkimd@hotmail.com or call 954 781 3004. engine is in anaheim at precision motors. 714 879 9072

Big difference in price between a 250 hp motor and a 300hp motor that never needs a valve adjustement again. Like 5K dollars difference

Harald and the dollar has droped since this email:

I have a Engine of interest for you , a 1997 varioram from a 993 Targa with (42.000 Miles ) Including the crating and Airfreight to you ,this will be 8800 /9300 $ .
A normal 993 Engine would be 7500/ 8000 $ .

Steve Weiner
Rennsport Systems
Portland, Oregon:
The '97 is the better one and has 30K miles on it and is in excellent
condition. Its $12K plus some shipping.

Couple of quick questions to see if I have the order down correctly.

> 3.0 rebuild on my engine with Euro pistons/value job and nothing terrible
> found in my engine. $8/10K We already know I'll need exhaust valves at least.


Yessir, thats a rough estimate; sight unseen.


> 3.2 rebuild with Mahle P&C same as above 10/12K depending on what you find


Yep.


> 3.4 and 3.5 on my 3.0 case mean either 98s or 100mm Mahle P&Cs cut to 9.5
> compression and a 3.2 crank.
> 10/12K for the rebuild
> 1.5K for the crank
> plus ? to the cut down compression
> do I need twin pugs with this set up @ 2K


Yes, these big motors must have twin-ignition. A new 3.5 is more $$$ than a 3.4
due to the crankshaft and case machining.


> say 16K for these engines....correct?


Thats close, yessir.


> Or a 3.6 varioram transplant @ 20K
> plus another oil cooler @ 1K
> Less what ever I sell my current engine for (say 4K)


Yep.


> 17K total when i am done


Thats very close.


> These numbers fairly representative of the engines we have been discussing?
> Please let me know the approximate correct numbers in each case if I have
> missed.
>

Yessir. There are alwyas some variables in what we might find in your engine
and with any used motor and that should be factored. Guides are somewhat
frequent.

See you on Saturday.

--
Steve Weiner
Rennsport Systems
Portland, Oregon


And finally Timmins:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Timmins, Steve"
To: "'Dane Burns'"
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 3:07 AM

> Seattle is a long way from Delaware so dropping the car off seems a bit
> difficult.
>
> I have the following:
>
> 964 1990 Rebuilt under 2K miles (3 years ago) updated to latest head/P&Cs
> nice motor $7850
>
> 964 Late 1991 (Plastic intakes and updated heads) 48K miles $7850
>
> 1997 US VarioRam with euro electronics and DME, 26K miles $9950
>
> Above are in stock, in cars running and fully tested.
>
> Add: Conversion Kit
> 964 $1395
> 993 $1575
>
> Suggested options:
> PS Blockoff $89
> Chips with kit $325 (964) / $375 (993)
> Air Filter $185 $65
> Coil Mount (993 only) $75
> Upgraded Spacers $30
>
> Incoming engines
> 993 95 US, 56K miles $8950
>
> Let me know what suits and we can go from there. Shipping to Seattle runs
> approximately

No question anything can be done less expensively if you have the time to do your own labor and the time to look for the best buy on an engine and parts. I am a plug and play guy when it comes to my Porsche.

[dd74]

Either way, I don't think you can go wrong. For a 3.6 conversion, I like the idea of Instant G. Shipping (or driving the car) to Rhode Island or wherever Instant G is (they're in the Northeast), would be added expense, but at least they've done this swap before, and their engines are pre-installed and checked out before they install it into the customer's car.

With that said, I talked briefly with Tyson at TRE, and they too have some experience with 3.6 swaps. Of course, they're down here in North Hollywood. I wouldn't think they'd charge much more than $12K for the conversion.

I have no experience with Jerry Woods but have heard very good things about him.

Once in a while I'll call shops about 3.4 conversions, but for a 3.0. The best price I received was $8K from Supertec in Orange County. The meat of the cost is the 3.2 crank, which on Pelican is upwards of $3K retail. But if you can afford that and are doing the pistons anyway, what the heck, right?

[Kevin Stewart]

i have a 3.6 from a 93 7500
instalation kit 2000
misc parts ect 3000
this equals 12500 ask jack O he is about the same place go to widebodies web site they charged him 2000 to install, you numbers are crazy Kevin

[rdane]

Going price on used, perfect condition, 3.2 cranks is $14/1600. A new one directly from Porsche is $2900.

[dd74]

Originally posted by Kevin Stewart
i have a 3.6 from a 93 7500
instalation kit 2000
misc parts ect 3000
this equals 12500 ask jack O he is about the same place go to widebodies web site they charged him 2000 to install, you numbers are crazy Kevin

Hey Kev: which are crazy? My numbers or Dane's?

I think the range would be $12K-15. There's the added cost of cooling, too. So I'll say $14-15K.

P.S. I rode my bicycle past a Studio City car lot with tons of '99-'01 996s. Man, I'd wait maybe five years and pick one of those up when the prices go down...if they go down...

Maybe...

[Kevin Stewart]

dd74, you are right on the money, idid my own labor, add the labor and it would be 14000, heres the thing you can do some shopping and come way under that, and sorry folks patrick motor sport would return mycall or return email, i had cash in hand buy,

rdane if you want to argue some more your right im wrong,you win, Kevin

[turbo6bar]

Kevin, the installation kit you mention for $2000 is like the kit from instant-g, correct?

What other miscellaneous parts did you buy for $3000?

Guys, any other options for oil cooling besides the front-mounted oil cooler? I have a Carrera oil cooler already. I remember one fellow installed twin Carrera oil coolers (one per fender). My car is a 78SC.

Jurgen

[rdane]

Originally posted by ludovicbreger
I think it's wiser to forget about the 3.6 transplant. The last thing I want it to be at risk of needing another rebuild.

What would the 3.4 or 3.5 upgrade cost and take me to in term of HP? I really need a street legal car BTW.

I wish I could do the work myself but frankly, it's out of the question.

I agree on the unknown of having to rebuild a 3.6 after you buy it. That would be some serious coin.

You can get into a CA legal 3.4 for around 8 or 9K$ starting wth a decent 3.2 Carrera.

I understand the labor issue. While I *might* be able to build an engine I don't have the time and frankly can make more money working than I would have to pay an experienced wrench to to it right and do it faster.

this equals 12500 ask jack O he is about the same place go to widebodies web site they charged him 2000 to install, you numbers are crazy

Try to remember they aren't my numbers. They are quotes, some from well respected members of this BBS.

Timmins and Steve Weiner as two of them who have done a bunch of 3.6 transplants and their numbers are at or quickly approaching $20k for a varioram installed in their shops.

But, OK, Kevin..that is 2K to install Jack Olsen's engine which had already been in an early car. It was totally sorted out already. You are talking apples and oranges on the install. I doubt $2K will get your pieces into your car from anyone I have talked to. Be nice if it would. No arguement from me. The original thread was a guy asking a question about 3.4 verses 3.6 transplants. I was sharing the numbers I have been quoted. You say another $1500 plus your 12500 gets you a 3.6.

You mentioned problems with your 3.6 install. Aren't there always probelms? You can read about any number of 3.6s done at home, not running right, here on Pelican. Which is why most shops won't do a 3.6 transplant for $2000 and your's aint running I suspect.

At 10K plus I expect my car to run...very well.