Why so many engine rebuilds?

I seriously thinking of finally taking the plunge (I've been looking for many years) on buying a 911. Originally thought of staying in the 78 to 83 range but rethinking to an 84 to 86 year model. Anyway - my question. When looking it seems that any 911 with 100K to 125 K miles seems to have a "engine rebuild" With the bullet proof reliability - why do engine rebuilds seem the rule rather than the exception? Finally if the compression and leakdown tests are acceptable - does this mean that an engine rebuild is not in the foreseable future.

As a statistician, I'd suggest you may be making a sampling error. On this board, we hear about rebuilds fairly often, but this site is all about car PROBLEMS and parts.

I have every reason to believe that my engine, wiht 154,000 miles, is fresh as a daisy. I intend to take it WAY past 250,000 miles. Unless I come into some money (I keep trying) and put a 3.2 or 3.6 in it. The Carrera cars are excellent and have more power, though I am deeply in love with my car.

I thought it was quite interesting the comments Bruce Anderson makes in his bood about the SC engines. One guy blew one up by missing a shift in a hillclimb - the engine had 350,000 miles. One guy has 450,000 miles and going strong. Bruce says he and his buddy (who also has a busy Porsche shop), have NEVER rebuilt an SC motor because it wore out.

I'm about to get off my soap box but must say that this is one of the reasons I have loved these cars since I was a young man. The manufacturer put an under-200 cubic inch engine in my car that makes 180 horsepower and lasts hundreds of thousand of miles. Had Porsche not already done this, the engineering world would laugh at the suggestion that this is possible.

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'83 SC

rd - good observation. I have been sitting silent for some time wondering why people think these cars are so reliable. Maybe for a 20 year old car they are, but not if you just go by the definition of reliable. I have personally never seen an SC that didn't have a rebuilt engine, never. I think the high mile cars you hear about are great exeptions to the rule, outside of 3 sigma (stat terms for Big S). The vast majority of these cars are very old, and even if they have low miles time has taken its tole. Mr. Anderson probably has had dealings with thousands of SCs and Carreras, yet only the 2 or 3 extreme mileage cars are mentioned. Someone like Warren IS capable of over maintaining a car to reach Volvo type mileage claims, the average Jo runs the **** out of these cars then sells them when the studs break. My advice - if you have the budget for a good P-mechanic, or can do the work yourself go for it. These cars are really fun. Expect failures of some sort along the way - that's just part of it. As for compression checks and leakdowns, may be good today blown tomorrow. It just takes one missed shift or a headstud that has come of age. So much for bullitproof.

Never seen an SC without a rebuilt engine? There are dozens in my PCA region alone, includnig my own car. I don't know of any with 400,000 miles, but personally know of lots in the 150,000-250,000 range. That seems pretty reliable to me.
My experience, as a matter of fact, is the exact opposite of yours. Of all the SC owners that I know or have known in the last 10 years, I can't think of any that HAVE had their engine rebuilt.
Just my own personal experience.

As a non-expert with no statistics courses to his credit, I'd say that these are phenomenally well-engineered cars that end up in the driveways of two distinct camps of owners.

The ordinary joes who simply enjoy the status of owning a distinctive looking car probably are amazed at how trouble free their simple little cars turn out to be.

But the pool that's represented on this board (and in similar venues) is the enthusiast -- who really enjoys what these cars are capable of doing, and pushes the limits of that performance on a regular basis. As such, it might be more fair to judge Porsche's reliability to that of Ferraris and other exotics, or even to purpose-built race cars.

A Volvo or a Toyota may go 400,000 miles, but how much of that mileage is spent at redline? And an NSX or M3 my seem very reliable today, but how much work is it going to have been needed on them 27 years from now?

The cars that belong to the men (and women?) on this board get driven more, taken to their limits more, are modified more (to extract even better performance). This puts them in the racing camp, in my book, where rebuilds are routine. My 27-year-old car eats up a lot of dollars and labor, but I'd be hard pressed to think of any other 27-year-old make or model that can perform as well on a track and wouldn't cost a whole lot more to keep there.



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Jack Olsen
1973 911 T sunroof coupe

[This message has been edited by JackOlsen (edited 09-18-2000).]

well, this is going to be a burning topic in no time...

The Porsche 911 is a very, very well made car.
What other car can you hammer on and race around in for 20 or 30 years...regardless of mileage...and still drive with any degree of enjoyment or competitiveness? We are talking about speed derranged leadfooters who use these cars as everyday drivers.. and then go out and win events in the same car on weekends...with 100+k on the clocks!
Tell me...what other production sports car from 70's-80's vintage do you see out there doing that? AND still holding it's market value?
Ever see a Ferrari 308 with 100k at an autocross? or an '81 Vette with 220k miles on the clock at a trackday. never.
the 911 is a unique car with amazing technology..new and old,made of fine materials and aircraft like tolerances.
These cars really should not even be judged by" other" car standards.



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77911s

I've got a bunch of broken dilivar studs, but in two out of three cases, the rest of the engine is in great shape. The one that was all worn out was from Saudi Arabia and was run low on oil which did wear the engine out prematurely. Most racers build their engines after races, like LeMans, for example. Those $100,000- $?00,000 engines are lucky to last the 24 hours of punishment and then most of them are toast. Ferraris get redlined a lot too because its fun and it sounds good, yet the powerplant is really quite reliable. All is not perfect in limited productionland or in messproduction either, but the later allows for more $spent on engineering. Albeit most of it on how to make the thing cheaper. If you are looking for reliability, drive smoothly and not too fast, and overmaintain it and most cars will go a long way. But, most of us on this page want to have fun with cars that are not fresh of the line. Anybody, even one lacking brains can drive one of those. We are part of the group who treasures the tactile sense of driving and the sound and enjoy being resourceful in keeping them on the road and track. Not everybody can do that, and I'm proud to be part of the resourceful group that gets a kick out of that. We'd be bored silly with most of what the big companies put out. GM doesn't try to make great cars, they try to make big $$$$$$.

A newbie 911 owners two cents: Porsches cost more because they are more. They are pushed further and driven harder on a regular basis than any other car built for the same purposes. I have a number of cars and none of them come close to the 911's soul. It is like a faithful companion that knows what you want - scratch that - knows what you NEED and eagerly gives it to you. That is why I named my female German Shepard Porsche! My Ferrari 308 is a cool car, but it is not the performance tool the 911 is. It is not so easily updated because its core is inadequate. To say a Ferrari has no soul is idiotic, yet it somehow gets amputated at the near limit.

So what if a 911 needs attention from time to time? Are we not guilty of the same need? Do we consider ourselves a lemon should we need some type of care? Hey, 911's are people too...

VIPRKLR, being one who's lusted after a Ferrari since childhood, here is the inevitable question: what year is your 911 and how does it compare with the 308, in driving excitement terms?



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DW

89 Targa

RD

I think that I would get the newest model that I could $$$$$ get (87+). You may loose some of the agile feel due to the extra weight but you can just get in and drive it.

Rarely I had to bring my wife in to explain the 3 sigma thing to me but she didn't get the "Big S" thing but I think I got it.

The truth is that these cars do break and when they do, they can get very expensive really fast. Just be prepped for that and find a good mech (tough to find) if you don't/can't do your own work. Most Mech's (not all) will see you as a big $ sign .

Also if you want to go really fast and get there really fast it will cost you. You will have $30,000+ in to it before you know what happened.

Are they worth it? I don't know at this point, because mine has been down for so long (life gets in the way).

Good luck on your quest.

s

I've driven a couple of early 80's 308's, having also lusted after them a long time. A few drives were like a cold shower. I think the biggest shock is how SLOOOOW those particular years were (these are the 2 valve CIS cars). I think an SC could get to 60 and back down to zero again before the 308 could get to 60. Seriously. It would get creamed by a VW Jetta 6 cyl.
I don't think the sound was anything to write home about, either. And the build quality seemed like a kit car. Lift up the front hood to see exposed wires and a generally unfinished look.
I came away seriously disillusioned. To compare those particular years 308s with a 911SC would be ludicrous, in my opinion. It is not even in the same performance ballpark.
Maybe that's why the 2 valve CIS cars can be purchased for so cheap.
NOTE: I've not driven the earlier carb'ed cars or the later 4 valvers, those may be totally different.

WELL some of the questions you should know,what type of engine do i want 3.2,3.3 what trans,is this car factory or?is the paint original do i need a clucth and so on,i know from expirence that theres a lot of questions before you purchase one of this cars,i got luck when i found my car,if i had to do it all over again,you bet just sooner.PLUS as a bonus you have this board with the LARGEST group of people that know this cars willing to help you as long that you dont have a chevy engine in you porsche. LOL.

I have driven several Ferraris as well as many performance exotics Lotus esprit turbo, Pantera etc and nothing drives like a 911

The Ferrari 308 are way overateted especially the early carb cars, hit a bump and the whole car rattles and shakes they are a very rough ride , you have the engine right behind you so its noisy and heat seeps in,you think a 915 is tricky try the gated Ferrari gearbox very picky and notchy
thats why these are definate day tripper cars ,not something you'd want to take across country, Ferrari did improve the 308 series with the 328 much more refined better throttle response etc, keep in mind the Ferrari driving position is very different also the steering wheel is craked way forward at an angle which is unadjustable which can get tiring fast

The Testarossa is a different breed though far superior to the 308 in every way its the only car that I'd consider over a 911 ,but you need to deal with $6500 tune ups, $600 distributor caps and $1000 brake rotors
which is why most have less than 30k on them

Lotus esprits feel like kit cars , you cant see anything out of them and parts such aswindow cranks etc fall off in your hands , they feel as if they are driving on rails very stable but a rough car to drive around town bad ventalation and the winshields at such an extreme rake you see ghosts on the hood from the dash they are a step down from even a 308 as far as drivability

You might be speaking the truth jaun about the lack of help for those chevy guys, wonder why that is?

s

Maybe the fact that this is a *Porsche* board has something to do with it?!?

Back to the original topic ... I have a theory that, like becoming parents, a lot of Porsche buyers of the past 25 years were not really prepared to take care of their new purchases properly ... and a lot of the used cars on the market now are in very marginal shape as the result of neglect more than anything else. Face the truth, the very best and well-maintained cars are not even on the market for sale! The vast majority of the type of car an enthusiast would want are not the ones on the market currently! The enthusiast/owner/mechanic is not putting cars on the market, because there is no money to be made when there is only $4-8,000 difference between a 'bad' car and a 'great' car, and the differences are not always visible!

The passion of ownership of a 911 has both risks and rewards, but when talking to prospective buyers, I always encourage research and reading, but few are really willing to be thorough, patient, and careful. It is very easy to be too eager, too ready to hear and see what you want, rather than be the critic, skeptical about words from a slick salesman that already 'knows' what you want to hear ...

Finally, a lot of the cars that are turning out to need major work, were bought by inexperienced people who did not know what problems to look for, or even which questions to ask! And, in many or most of the cases, the buyer did not meet the previous owner, and find out anything about the person and car, and the knowledge that previous owner was willing or able to pass on to the buyer. Of all of the people that have had 915 transaxle problems on this board requiring rebuilds or replacements over the past year, I would venture to state that NONE even knew to ask how often the gear oil had been changed, if ever, before they bought the car!

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Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa

Well fellas - I love the 911 - there is no comparison to a 308. But there is no comparison between the new 911 Turbo and the new 360 Modena. The Ferrari is superior in every way - build quality and all.

Not every 911 is superior to every comparable car every time. As much as I hate to say it, I have a Datsun 240Z with a 3.1 L, 287 dynoed Horsepower car that only cost me $7500 to buy, build and paint. And again, I reluctantly ad that no 911 has come close to beating it on the track.

Loving a car means give and take, just like the Mrs. We like what we like, love what we love and just don't talk much about the rest - LOL.

The most exciting, best built and most fun drive car in the world is undoubtedly the one you never stop thinking about.

I paid $13,500 for my car almost a year ago now, and have put probably $2,00 into it in parts. I was lucky and got a good one. there's still more I will do and my goal is basically restoration. A driving car.

Neglected or broken Porsches will be expensive to operate, perhaps very expensive, and evaluation requires an expert. Buy with your brain rather than yoru heart.

I think Warren's first paragraph said taht there are some 911s out there (usually not for sale) that are an incredible value. Just incredible. For a bit more than I paid, but not double I don't think, a person could stumble upon a low-mile Carrera that has been properly cared for. This would be a wonderful car, indeed.

The SCs are said to be bullet proof. Their engines are legendary, though apparently not bullet proof. But like Warren said, you'll have to kiss a lot of frogs to find the princess. They're out there, but most are just frogs.

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'83 SC

I think on the whole 911s are better cared for than most cars

When my dad came to visit me here in Vegas a year ago he was totally enthralled with my 22 year old 911SC after taking a few twisty road trips around sceneic desert area here.

He had been an avid Fiat Spyder owner for years spending 1000s on upgrages for cam,carbs etc but after driving my car exclaimed he'd never drivin a car that handled so well or was such a pleasure to drive, he could not believe however that he could find a 911 as clean as my car though but after some convincing and pushing I got him to check out afew cars in N Cal where he lived I had narrowed a search down to one car a I found thru a published paper online a 78Sc with 50k original miles which he purchased on the spot
Yes their are a few dogs out there and stay away from people selling cars whom clearly could not afford one but with a little work you will find a nice car, I think who the PO is and his lifestyle is as important as the rest or the car, a neglected and abused car will quickly send you to the poorhouse now matter how old the car is, so you can speend months looking for that needle in the haystack and still have a risk or find something as close as possible to what you wan't and take the plunge,

I'd rather have the car and enjoy it along with the few things that may go wrong than spend considerable time and resources searching for the perfect car you may or may not find

I have a 1979 911SC with 185,000 miles on the odometer. The car runs perfect, doesn't burn any oil (it does have the factory oil leak)and is still very fast. I "drive" the car and it is redlined very frequently. It passes California smog with flying colors. I can't speak for all 911's but most SC owners I know have never had their engines apart. It does have a couple of engine mods - the pressure-fed tensioners and a pop-off valve and some suspension upgrades but it is basically stock. How many American cars that are 21 years old with 185k on them would you feel okay redlining? These are great cars, meant to be driven and are very dependable. You have to realize that people don't usually post here unless they have a problem.