'76 911S garage find, 2.7 CIS motor question

[FrinkFrog]

Hello 911 fans, from an inexperienced (but willing to learn) newbie. My question concerns a stock 1976 911S with 35 K ACTUAL miles on it recently purchased as my first Porsche. I am the 3rd owner (the 2nd owner was the body man who bought the car and always intended to "get to it"). The car has been sitting in a heated garage for the last 26 years with the motor out (b/c the car was rear-ended and chassis needed to be placed on a body jig to insure everything was aligned correctly). I would like to put the car back together, paint it, and use as a daily driver. My question concerns the motor: Do I rebuild a 2.7 CIS with this few miles on it (just because it has sat a long time) or, could I get away with upgrading the fan, exhaust, maybe add an external oil cooler and hope for no pulled head studs in the near future? The guy I purchased the car from told me he turned the motor over once in awhile to lubricate the inside and the motor does turn over easy with a 22mm socket wrench on the fan bolt. It eventually will spit oil out of the return hose when this is done, so there is still oil inside. I wrote to Wayne and he suggested I upgrade to the 11 blade fan, remove the thermal reactors, install new cap, rotor, wires, plugs, change oil, change out all fuel lines, empty & clean tank, install new fuel filter, run for 10 minutes, then change the oil again and see how it runs. He also recommended I post my question in this forum for additional 'expert' advice.... so here we go. Many thanks to Wayne and all of you.

[ael911]

I'd do the same, try to get it running and see how things go. If the motor has that low of a mileage and turns freely, it ought to be okay. Seals and hoses should be replaced and probably new injectors and injector lines. 11 blade fan is a must and I would highly recommend an external oil cooler. Carrera tensioners is also a good idea. Welcome and keep us posted on the progress.

[ael911]

Also, if the car's past has been in cool climates, chances are the valve guides are still good and you can expect another 30K miles or so before you start to experience worn guides.

[FrinkFrog]

ael911,
Thanks for the response. The tensioners are on my list, as well as the injectors. I thought maybe the valve guides might give a problem, from what I've read, but like you suggest, the car was (is) a cold climate car (Buffalo, NY) and I may very well get away with some things for awhile. I also believe this car might become a stepping stone to a 3.0 or 3.2 later model. Which seals do you recommend changing?
Kirk

[LakeCleElum]

Who am I to disagree with Wayne.....Great advice, go for it and keep us posted...

[Dantilla]

911 engines go in and out of the car pretty easily. Why not drive it until it needs to come out for some reason? I would just take care of the above mentioned items, install it and drive.

[Dan in Pasadena]

FrinkFrog, My '76 California car had the 11 blade fan put on early, along with ditching the thermal reactors for what I have come to find out were called "Sebring pipes" back in the day. Don't know if that was a common term or one aftermarket company's name for them.

Anyway, I have over 126,000 miles on mine and no pulled studs. Mine has NO external oil cooler, but I fully intend to put a fanned Carrera cooler on it. Temps are not a problem (190-210 most always) if I'm not in bumper-to-bumper traffic but I don't use mine as a daily. Its a once-a-weeker, or late-in-the-evening-blast-out-to-the-distant-relatives house car.

I'd say follow Wayne's directions. Make CERTAIN you add a pop off valve NOW, before you start it - ask me why? (Doh!) and I'd agree with the chain tensioner upgrade asap. At 35K miles and in a cooler state where its been I would think there's no reason why this motor couldn't give you a LOT of service with these upgrades. Best of luck with it. Tell us what happened, Dan

[ael911]

Originally posted by FrinkFrog
ael911,
Thanks for the response. The tensioners are on my list, as well as the injectors. I thought maybe the valve guides might give a problem, from what I've read, but like you suggest, the car was (is) a cold climate car (Buffalo, NY) and I may very well get away with some things for awhile. I also believe this car might become a stepping stone to a 3.0 or 3.2 later model. Which seals do you recommend changing?
Kirk

I would change the flywheel seal, main pulley seal, the thermostat O ring, and replace valve gaskets and oil sump gaskets. I would also replace the oil return tubes. Rubber gaskets and seals have a tendency to shrink or become brittle after years of sitting unused. Better to replace these cheap items before putting the engine back into the car and finding out later that it leaks.

[ael911]

Originally posted by Dan in Pasadena
FrinkFrog, My '76 California car had the 11 blade fan put on early, along with ditching the thermal reactors for what I have come to find out were called "Sebring pipes" back in the day. Don't know if that was a common term or one aftermarket company's name for them.

Anyway, I have over 126,000 miles on mine and no pulled studs. Mine has NO external oil cooler, but I fully intend to put a fanned Carrera cooler on it. Temps are not a problem (190-210 most always) if I'm not in bumper-to-bumper traffic but I don't use mine as a daily. Its a once-a-weeker, or late-in-the-evening-blast-out-to-the-distant-relatives house car.

I'd say follow Wayne's directions. Make CERTAIN you add a pop off valve NOW, before you start it - ask me why? (Doh!) and I'd agree with the chain tensioner upgrade asap. At 35K miles and in a cooler state where its been I would think there's no reason why this motor couldn't give you a LOT of service with these upgrades. Best of luck with it. Tell us what happened, Dan

Dan, it was a pleasure to finally meet and speak with you at the T-day run. Your car is beautiful and us mid-year guys need to stick together. Sorry for pulling off the road and contributing to you getting lost. Hope we can chat again at the New Year's run.
Andy

[FrinkFrog]

Thanks guys for all the advice. I am beginning to feel more confident about the car and my ability to make it work. I certainly believe that I am in good company and can't thank you enough. I'll keep you posted on my progress and maybe a photo or two. Kirk

[Dan in Pasadena]

Originally posted by ael911
Dan, it was a pleasure to finally meet and speak with you at the T-day run. Your car is beautiful and us mid-year guys need to stick together. Sorry for pulling off the road and contributing to you getting lost. Hope we can chat again at the New Year's run.
Andy

Andy, yes it was a pleasure. Maybe I'll have better brakes and a working stereo by then! At any rate, I only just saw the New Year's Day run a few minutes ago. Not sure if I'll go but it is certainly a good cause. If I go I'll look for you, Dan.

P.S. Thanks you for the compliments on my car. Yours is simply awesome. I am jealous of those seats, exhaust, etc, etc!

[JackMan]

Hi

Just my 2 cents. Before I dug in deep with a 2.7 commitment, I'd suggest looking at the prices to swap in a used 3.0. Add up the dollars -- including that top end rebuild you have staring you in the face in 20-30k miles -- and compare.

Personally I'd go with the 3.0. I'm sure someone here will chime in with a more expert opinion, but this amateur just hears too many horror stories about the 2.7.

And if you have lots of cash rolling around, just go get a cage and a 3.8 liter.....

wj

[jld]

I guess you could say that I have been there done that! My car was bought with a small engine fire..fixed up and I drove it a few months, then the stock tensioners failed and it was " lets introduce the valves to the pistons". Next was the littany of 2.7 fixes [pop off, ect.] finally after another 20-30k miles was the bottom end streching fix. If you are a serious car guy you will LOVE this car and next comes...more horsepower needed! just do it now!! My advice is to sell the 2.7 and look for a decent 3. or 3.2 and you'll spend less $ in the long run and be much happier. jack

[ael911]

I agree with Jackman and JLD, a great alternative is to go find a decent donor 3.0SC motor. A good one can give you over 400k trouble free miles. However, I think initially, the 2.7 is still worth a try. It all depends on what current condition the motor is in. Once you get it fired up, I'd get some leakdown numbers and see how much oil it consumes. Then you'll get an idea how much life to expect before a rebuild is in order. IMHO, I personally like the magnisium 2.7 if all the common problems are addressed. They are quicker to rev than the later 3.0 or 3.2s. Rebuid it with time certs, Raceware studs, silicone bronze valve guides, and add a external cooler, the 2.7 will rev all day and give you many happy miles.

[ael911]

BTW, if your 2.7 is an S, there is a good chance the 90mm cylinders are Nikasil, mine were. I had close to 100K miles when the PO rebuilt the motor. The cylinders looked like new and re-ring the pistons were all that was necessary.

[Gunter]

FrinkFrog: I agree with cleaning and/or replacing fuel lines, etc.
After that many years the fuel distributor may be clogged up.
The big questions is about the P/C's; are they Nikasil or Alusil?
One doesn't know for sure until the engine is opened up.
Consider seriously to get a 3.0 before spending too much money on this 2.7. Before you know it, the cost runs away with you.
If you want to see the condition of the engine, clean the fuel delivery as suggested above, install the engine and run it; possible problems/leaks will show up.
Then decide what to do.

[afterburn 549]

you can always pull the motor back out... Do the few logical things and see how it goes.. you should be able to get a bunch more miles out of it

[FrinkFrog]

I'm learning more and more from this forum. I appreciate all the suggestions and advice you guys have. I get kinda scared thinking this thing is going to be a money pit before I ever get to drive it (and I've yet to ever drive one). But most of you think I should give it a whirl nearly the way it is and learn as I go, so I consider that great advice. The car wasn't incredibly expensive to begin with, so if this motor holds up, I can really save for the day I rebuild it. I really enjoy tinkering and reading this forum, so this winter, I hope to purchase the important things that are mentioned, do what Wayne suggested, and get it back together. I think this site is simply great and coupled with the great books I've got (and actually read), I feel well armed for what comes next. Kirk

[ed martin]

I would take Wayne's advice. I wouldn't go any further, like replacing seals etc unless you find yourself with leaks and then you are compelled to do that. Do the simple things first. If you like Wayne says, you won't have to be spending a ton of money and labor and with some luck you'll have a good running engine. The fan and the thermal reactors were two of the critical factors in terms of longevity of these engines. I had a 74 2.7 that did not have the thermal reactors and had an eleven blade fan, and it was a good solid engine that gave me no problems. I believe that cars after 73 had the hydraulic tensioners installed from the factory. Oh and one more thing, there may be some guys that will disagree with me on this, but whatever you do, don't use synthetic oil, or you will find yourself having to change out all your seals.

[FrinkFrog]

Thanks Ed. When you say "...cars after 73 had the hydraulic tensioners..." are you talking about the Carreras I read about all the time, or are they the kind I should replace when possible. I need to take off the valve cover and inspect for loose head stud nuts, plus just look b/c I understand I'll be adjusting valves every 5 K miles. But I don't really expect to find any. I'll have more time to fiddle with it once I start turning down overtime at work. And I have never run synthetic in anything, so probably wouldn't have done that, but great advice all the same. Is the Swepco gear lube synthetic and would it harm the tranny?