Handling improvements for an '76 911S

Dear All,

I would like to get my '76 911S Targa set up for fast road use.
I am a great believer that standard is best for the majority.
The car has 15x6" Fuch alloys which I intend to keep.

Firstly tyres, with 205/60 rubber all around being the favourite.
I have seen people squeeze 215/55's on the back rims, am I correct in thinking this will not sit properly on the 6" rim?

I am fitting turbo tie rods and then will get the car aligned & corner balanced (lowered too as the car is a US model).


Should I fit new shocks before the alignment or will fitting them not change this.

Not sure if the car needs shocks or not, they are standard Boge with 120k miles but actually seem to work fine.
So I am thinking get the car aligned/balanced & see how I go, or is this a false economy?

I don't want to go mad, I love the car for what it is, I just want to get the best out of it. So I'm leaving the torsion & sway bars alone.

As the car is a targa I've considered a strut brace, opinion is divided reading other threads. The alignment shop recommend it on the grounds that the alignment is likely to last longer. They don't sell the brace so their advice is unbiased.

Should I save the brace $$'s & just replace the shocks?

I'm open to any other ideas, I just want to get the handling sorted pretty much from the start & then just get on learning to drive the car.

Regards, JG.

We are in the same boat my friend. I have been involved in Historic Sprotscar Racing for 6 years now and have learned the basic's pretty well... This is the path I am going to take:

First, the best improvement you can make to handling is a tire upgrade. 6" rims are a limitation, BUT, lets say you want to go to a 215 - the MOUNTING SIZE of the tire can vary from one manufacture to another, so a 215 in one brand might not fit while another dose nicely. Discount Tire can help here… Our cars are light, so we can get good mileage out of sticker rubber than say a Corvette.

I think Sway bars would be the next step. I have heard that this, second only to tires, makes the greatest improvement to our cars. Adjustable units are a must.

The lower the car can reasonably sit, the better she will handle. Real world driving makes certain demands on ride height, but since our cars were RAISED UP about an inch to meet DOT impact regs of the 70's, we can safely lower them 1 - 1 1/2 inches to get the center of gravity down. IF you dot his, look up the procedure for adding a kit to the steering – (VERY inexpensive) as well as removing the shock metal bushings in the front.

I really don’t think a strut brace will help us very much. The torsion system keeps the shock loads down in the chassis and unless you are hanging the rear end out over rough roads, many people doubt the help.

Shocks and torsion bars are the nest step. While the stock units are OK, there is plenty of room to improve. You must decide how you want car to drive - good ride with fun to push around handling up to razor reflexes and harder ride?

Bruce Anderson address a lot of this in his book. You might also search this BB for more info.

Just my poor .02 worth

Jon,

My experience has shown that Pirelli tires tend to run on the smallish side for a specific size, Michelins tend to be in the middle, and Goodyears tend to run large.

With that said, I ran Pirelli CN-36s, 215/60VR-15 in front and 235/60VR-15 in back on my 15 x 6 Fuchs for several years without any clearance problems under the stock '73 fenders! A really superb combination that got the most out of a stock chassis and suspension! Worked quite well on the '74 RS 3.0, too ... according to Paul Frere, in his October '74 review in Road & Track! You may want to try 'rolling' the fenders (do a search on the Pelican archives) to assure minimum problems with the left front fender clearance, where all tolerances tend to combine for minimums per Murphy's Law!

It needs to be said and emphasized that tires have the biggest overall effect on your car's handling, and are the biggest 'bang' for the buck! If you don't want to spend a bunch of money on a new set of wheels and tires ... get the best tires that fit your existing wheels! VR-rated tires, though not the best rating these days, are still high-performance tires, and suitable for 911 applications, nevertheless!

A check of ads in Road & Track should get several choices for you ... I have been buying high-performance tires by phone and Internet since 1976, and find the vast improvement in choices worth the wait, and the price break is amazing at times!

One final comment ... lots of people here will tell you that 15-inch VR-rated tires are obsolete, old, legacy technology (from the computer industry buzzword dictionary) ... but they are WRONG ... as they were good for .9 g + cornering, and stopping distances that cars costing 3-10 times as much are just now exceeding on aregular basis. For 9 years a drum-braked '73 VW Beetle held R&T's record as the shortest stopping distance from 80 mph at 238 feet (on 175/70HR-15 Pirelli CN-36 tires) ... not even matched until 1982 by a Lamborghini Countach S, but not beaten!!! How's that for leading the pack with legacy technology?
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Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa

[This message has been edited by Early_S_Man (edited 11-03-2000).]

Warren,
Wow! I had no idea you could go that wide of a tire with the old stock fenders and 15X6's. When I bought my Michelin's at Costco, the guy told me that was the widest I could have. I had just gotten the car and had no idea. I just knew that the tires that were on there were very bald 185's. I aked a while ago on this board about how wide can you go with this kind of set-up and someone said that 215 was the very widest I would want to go.
The 73 car you speak of that had this set-up; was it lowered at all? Did you roll all four fenders?

This sounds like this could be the upgrade for me, and I have seen some pretty cheep 16X6/16X7 fuchs too on e-bay but maybe they're not even necessary eh?
I'm gonna start pricing those Pirelli's!

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Zach
77 911S 3.2

After my first full year of track events, I thought my car was well prepared. I had Bilstein Sport shocks, turbo tie rods, shock strut, lowered, 17" wheels 225 and 255. I was really surprised as I watched my car when my brother was cornering hard in it, the amount of body roll it still has even with its 21 and 22mm factory sway bars. To take your car to the next level, stiffer torsion bars and adjustable sway bars are needed. These car are still set up from the factory too soft for the general public.

Thanks for all the good advice.

With respect to tyres is bigger better?
I was going to go for 205/60's all around because of the OE spec of 4 x 185/70's.

Is there an advantage to having wider tyres on the back axle?
Also, I was told that the rim width should be at least 70% of the chosen tyre width to allow it to sit properly & not be pinched inwards.
This means 215's max.

So perhaps 205/60-15 front with 215/60-15 rear. Both 205 & 215's are available in Bridgestone RE71's or Pirelli P6000 which is good news.

A colleage tells me that RWD cars always handle better with 4 tyres the same size.
His reasoning being sidewall flex being identical giving more predictable handling.

Although the 911 is not your average RWD car, it has the engine over the driving wheels.

What's the story? I don't mind paying for wider rubber if it makes a difference, but experience tells me oversized tyres can often be worse!

Cheers, JG

Porsche has been putting larger sizes on the rear of production 911's for over 28 years now, and it seems to be an accepted practice. The benefits include reduced oversteer and higher cornering speed capability.

Tire Rack has Yokohama AVS Intermediates in 215/60VR-15 for $72, 225- and 235/60VR-15 for $78.

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Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa