I indeed found the factory manual pages that describe the process, including filling the entire gap with sealing coumpound after the windshield has been glued.

@Phil:
The manual also mentions the use of templates, these are used to push the shield exactly far enough into the glue, such that the plane is aligned properly with the body frame. In other words: the windshield doesn't sticks out too much, and is not pushed too far down either.
How did you do this ?
Sense oof feeling, is is the glass plane flush with the surrounding body ?

Manuals. We don't need no stinkin' manuals.

We eyeballed it, and the windshield sits about flush with the body. That set it deep enough so the outer rubber trim flushes things nicely.

Hopefully I am resurrecting what is an excellent and informative thread.

I am in the process of rebuilding my '89 car (fitting a 6 speed, complete rebuild etc etc) but also need to replace the windshield of my '75 that is currently in winter storage.

Based on this thread, I went and bought the 993 seals just to take a look at them and thought I would post a picture of the inner seal fitted to the '89 just to make sure that I have it right.

Anyway, here is the 993 inner seal fitted to the '89 flange http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1227848165.jpg

I gather the idea is to put the adhesive in the "pocket" between the edge of the seal and the body flange/windshield opening, idea is it gets glued mainly on the edge of the windshield to the body as well as the retention that the inner seal offers over the flange. And yes, I know that I'll need to clean the old sealant off of the opening before any of this gets done.....

Here is a photo of the outer seal....not sure how that works as I do not have a 993 windshield handy, but I do find it interesting that there is a "felt" section that must allow some movement or expansion on hot days or something....

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1227848500.jpg

The outer seal is a closed piece while the inner is, as you can see, will have a seam at the bottom where the two ends meet.

Anyway, for the folks that have done this, please confirm that my understanding is right and I'll go find my 993 windshield to fit to the '75 in the spring....

Thanks

Dennis

Sounds like you have it right. The adhesive goes in the v between the body and the seal and glues the windshield to the window frame. The outer seal snaps onto a lip on the windshield itself. Don't use too much adhesive as it squeezes out and can get into the groove in the windshield into which the outer seal snaps. I wound up installing the outer seal while the sealant was still wet because I was afraid I wouldn't get it past the ooze.

Good luck.

993 Quarter Window Seals in older 911s
 

Just to open up this discussion a bit I installed 964 quarter window glass using 993 seals in a 1977 911. This realy works well. You loose all the trim problems and the whole install is way simple and looks really clean. Highly recommended also.

By the way this was something that several people said couldn't be done with the 964 glass, only with 993 quarter glass but thats not the case. 964 glass works great.

The outer seal your showing with the felt is different from the one I used. The one I installed was rubber all the way. At least that's what I remember.

This is interesting - so the 993 glass does actually rest on, and is too large to fall through the opening? I've been toying with the idea of doing this for about a year because my glass is severly pitted. My 89 should have the 15MM seam and I gather this is a slam dunk other than getting the right amount of glue? If the glass rests on the seam I don't understand how you could have an issue with the glass being too deep or proud? It is the case that the 911 glass is too small and... would fall through the opening then - are the people who said glass-shops are using the same glass (911 & 964/993) for both cars not correct?

Any final verdict on the rear glass? The trim on my seal is broken and coming up and the whole mess generaly looks like hell. The trim isn't even available anymore apparently. Is there a seal (964 or 993) I could use with the 89 3.2 rear glass?

>It is the case that the 911 glass is too small and... would fall through the opening then - are the people who said glass-shops are using the same glass (911 & 964/993) for both cars not correct?

I have no idea.

In my case the 993 windshield had the retaining groove for the seal, so that is one reason to use it. I don't think the smaller windshield would be close enough to the edge of the opening to effectively glue it to the body, which is how this system works. With the glass glued in, it actually becomes part of the structure, stiffening the window opening.

OK, so it seems we need a definitive answer whether the windshield dimensions are the same through the 3 relevant body styles - big bumper '74 to '89, 964 and 993. Also useful to know whether the actual window frame opening (right to the outer sheet metal/pillars/roof is the same through the 3 models.

It seems to be true that the flange changed from 10mm deep to 15 mm deep somewhere in the late '80's.

Anyone got a clue how to confirm all this?

Dennis

Rudy @ Axiom where are you... ?

I think he/they have a good handle on this topic..

I was going to replace the windshield (broken by tree limb) for my 86 Carrera with the later 964 and the trimless weatherstrip...now I am not so sure. I have heard (here) that this will work and have been reassured that you must have the 964 glass with the trimless weatherstrip.

The glued 993 may be better but that adds more complications and it is hard enough to get a windshield guy to mix parts. This should be part of the 101 Projects (or 102).

Can I assume that the 994 windshield will fit the '86 911 opening using the 994 weatherstrip? If I want to use the 993 with glue will that fit the 86 opening?

I have a 993 glass on my car I can assure you it does fit.

wow good info, so im guessing 993 glass not 964 will be going into my car at some point!....

I fitted a 993 windshield in my 1989 - 911 a few months ago.
My 1989 3.2 (the last series 3.2-s) already got the 964 windowframe with the 964 windshield factory standard (964 seal without the alu strips).

The window frame flange of the 964 that you need to clip the inner 993 window seal onto is a bit smaller than the flange of the 993 but sufficient to mate with the 993 windshield. This smaller flange makes it important to carefully align the windshield when putting it in place.

The 911 models that have a window seal WITH the alu strips have an even smaller windowframe flange, here I would make sure that you have a broader bead of sealent applied to make sure it bonds to the ceramic coating around the window edge as well as to the inner seal you clip onto the window frame. I put the sealant on the windshield before fitting it in place.
After sealant cured, I filled the gap between windshield and windowframe with a suitable flexible black sealant.
Last step is to put the outer 993 weather strip around the windshield and it really looks great. Excellent fit, waterproof and silent.

About 911 windows in a 964 or vice versa:
Due to different flanges, an older style windshield (seal with alu strips) will not fit in an 964 body.
A 964 window in an older body does work, although the window/seal combination must have slightly less grip in the windowframe due to the smaller flange.

In any case the seal + windshield need to be matching pairs; don't mix seal / window types as the size of the panes are diferent.

Good info....I've an 89 myself (3.2 L, Silver Anniv. Ed.) and noted that I did not have any aluminum strip.

So,..this means that it's a given' that it's a 964 WS and gasket? I guess, what I mean is that if I call the Porsche dealer and order the manufacturer's gasket for my year car, am I correct in assuming it to NOT be a 964 gasket? (i.e., one must match the gasket with the windshield, as you duly noted).

Thanks,

Doyle

I actually did quite a bit of work to the body of my 1989 3.2 over the recent 2 years to treat initial small areas of rust; took the fenders off and the windshield out.

Especially when ordering new parts (small consumable items) I found out that my 3.2 had many 964 parts on it. The '89 3.2 was built in parallel with the 964 C4 that was already in the market at the same time. In fact the late 3.2-s have the body of the 964 as basis.

The factory modified the 964 fenders to fit the old style 3.2 bumpers. The difference you will notice in "the little access-door to the gas-filler-cap" in the left fender (don't know the right terminology for this in English) and the plumbing around this all: this is fully 964. This makes neither original left 3.2 fender nor left 964 fender fit this series of 1989-3.2s ! (the original 3.2 fender does not match with my gas-cap area, the original 964 fender does not match my front bumber area).

As said, same goes for the windshield and seal. I don't know exactly when Porsche introduced the change, but the last 1989 3.2-s indeed have the 964 WS+seal standard off factory. For these cars you need to order a 964 WS and 964 seal when you need replacement. My car is # 91ZKS150883 (convertible) and was delivered to its 1st owner on April 3, 1989 (in Germany).

This is indeed confusing when looking for parts; few specialists seem to be aware of the specifics of this intermediate series.
Knowing the differences now, for some parts I simple state that I have a 1988 3.2 and for some parts I state having a 964 to make sure I get the right part....

Those specialists who are aware confirm my findings; I also know for sure my car is not a DIY mix and match vehicle...

Does anyone have a picture of a 993 windshield groove? I'd like to see how the outer seal fits on it so I can plan my Spring project too.

@ stlrj: This is what the detail looks like; the drawing of the windshield groove I copied from a 993 manual, rest I edited around myself.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1275133800.jpg


This is what the 993 windshield looks like on my 1989 3.2 (with originally a 964 windshield fitted as described in my previous posting):

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1275133903.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1275133917.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1275133934.jpg

Thanks, that's just what I needed to know and that is exactly the look I want. Beautiful!

I have been assured that the trimless windshield seal will work with my 86 Carrera...but has anyone used the trimless rear window seal and does that require the 89 rear window?

You must in any case keep the right seal and glass together model wise.
Don't just use new style seal with the old glass (dimensions of the glass are slightly different).

I just changed my 84 911 windshield and decided to purchase the 964 and the 911 (with trim) seals both OEM Factory Porsche seals. The glass is new PPG aftermarket.

First, the PPG glass is slightly smaller all around than the factory Sigla glass by 5/16", all glass is not the same so be very careful with aftermarket windshields.

Then I inspected and measured both seals carefully and the bottom line is that the 964 seal uses larger glass. I don't have 964 glass to measure but can tell from inspecting the 2 seals that the 964 seal would require glass about 9mm larger all around, meaning 18mm larger in height and width. The 964 seal allows the glass to come much closer to the body, meaning the distance from the edge of the glass to the outside edge of the seal (the edge that touches and seals against the body) is 6mm on the 964 seal. But on the 911 seal it's 15mm! way different. Bottom line is that the 964 seal requires the 964 glass. I'm not saying others haven't had success using the 964 seal with 911 glass but if you do you'll never get that setup to seal properly.

Another area that's different is the channel where you put the rope into. The channel in the 911 is 10mm but in the 964 is 14mm this implies that the 964 must have had more metal tab in the frame than the 911 cars. I'm sure this won't be a show stopper but it implies the 964 seal and glass in the 911 car won't install as tightly as it would in the 964.

If I did it again I certainly would have spent more time sourcing the glass and to insure the glass was as close as possible in size to the factory Sigla window.

I now have a spare factory 964 seal. Maybe someday I'll find factory 964 glass cheap, if I do I'll redo the install.

After all the talk regarding what glass and what seal to use on what year cars, is this the consensus?

• All cars with the 10mm pinch weld flange were designed for the early 911 glass and seal with the aluminum/plastic trim. These cars will accept the 964 glass and seal but the fit may be a little loose because of the seal dimensions. These cars will also accept the 993 glass and 2-piece seal but again, the fit may be a little loose because the glued area between glass and inner seal is smaller.

• All cars with the 15mm pinch weld flange will not accept the earlier 911 glass and seal. These cars will accept the 964 glass and seal as well as the 993 glass and 2-piece seal.

• The same hold true for the rear back-glass on coupes.

The only issue with the 993 glass in the early 911 is the location of the VIN plate. At least up to a certain year, the VIN plate is on the A-pillar whereas the 993 glass has an open area at the bottom for the VIN plate.

Now, how do the 996 glass/seal and the 997 glass/seal fit into the picture? Or do we care?

not !!

Subscribed

I though I would share a few pictures of my test fit of a 964 windshield and 964 factory rubber into my RSR project.

Here's the roof skin ready to install. It is a later model skin with the 15mm pinch weld flange.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1346000627.jpg


Since I don't have the magic windshield template that the factory uses to check windshield opening dimensions prior to welding the roof skin into place, I just clamped the roof skin in place and then installed the windshield to check the fit.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1346000715.jpg

Also, I installed the windshield without any assistance or rubber lube. I was worried it would be a PIA, but not so. A large braided pull cord, slaping the glass with the an open hand and light taps with a piece of wood and rubber mallet on the rubber only. The corners and A-piller required caution so as not to tear the rubber.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1346001605.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1346000733.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1346000757.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1346000808.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1346000829.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1346000845.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1346000863.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1346000990.jpg

Bottom line: With the windshield installed, I was able to find one place where the pinch weld sheet metal needs some work. The bottom right corner of the roof frame support and the bottom right corner of the roof skin. There is a slight twist in this area. But hey, using the windshield as a template works fine.

great project your working on! looking forward to seeing it around town..

I did the same thing with my 86 Carrera...the only problem I have noticed is a slight pulling away from the windshield by the weatherstrip at the corners of the windshield. I can adjust this by pulling the weatherstrip down and toward the car body. Have you noticed this also?

Am I correct that you need both the 964 Glass and the 964 Rubber to install into a 84-89? In other words you can't use 84-89 glass with 964 rubber?

I'm under the assumption that the 964 glass is slightly larger than the 84-89 glass.

DG624: I did not notice any pulling away of the rubber from the glass. Maybe your pinch weld is bent a little in those areas. Make sure the pinch weld is 90 degrees to the body.

scarceller: Yes, you would need both a 964 glass and 964 rubber to install in pre-89 cars with a pinch weld of 10mm. The 964 has a 15mm pinch weld. Thus, the 964 glass is slightly smaller than the pre-89 glass because of the larger pinch weld and the 964 rubber has a deeper channel for the 15mm pinch weld.

There has also been some questions regarding using urethane adhesive on 964 windshields/rubber. The factory work shop manual says to use the adhesive. Both in the channel for the glass and in the corner of the pinch weld/body all around the opening. Not much, but enough to seal.

Here are pages from the 964 shop manual:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1348525724.jpghttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1348525763.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1348525946.jpghttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1348525961.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1348525991.jpghttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1348526004.jpg

I can't adjust the mounting trim without removing the glass and weatherstrip...its is not worth it. The weatherstrip seems to shrink back from the car body slightly and leaves a depression along the edge of the weatherstrip. I can adjust it by pulling it back toward the windshield. If this means that the windshield is lose it may be worth it to adjust it tighter by removing the glass again. Why do the instructions say to cut the weatherstrip?

Me thinks the reason the instructions say to cut the old rubber seal is because it was originally glued in place.

I have a 993 and a 993 glass which had to come out due to the same old rust infront of the a-pillar/on cowl issue ... I see PET/Pelican only lists 2 rubber pieces for the front screen - wondering what to do if the aluminium/hard plastic frame moulded onto the windscreen is broken in parts?

Its not too bad as it seems the frame only provides a slot for the outer trim to clip into .. right?
So can the glass stick to the inner rubber with just the right adhesive?

If not, is there anywhere I can buy that moulded frame piece?

thanks all!

Matt

I tried this mod as well and the 964 glass didnt work, it was simply too small. I had the exact problem that Sal described.

Not sure if this helps after so many years of this thread running but I recently purchased a later style carrera windshield with antenna for $225. It was Sekurit which I believe was factory. Unfortunately I needed it for my 964 so it did not fit. from what i can tell the 911 3.2 windshield was 3/8" smaller on all 4 sides than the 964 windshield. The best I could find for the 964 was Sekurit for $425 but the car came with Sigla from the factory which run around $1200. I will say that the shape of the windshield is identical other than being smaller all around. The 964 also has the black band across the bottom.

Not sure why the 964 windshield would be an improvement for rust. The 964's still suffered from rust in the lower right hand corner.

Okay I had to rethink this as it was a few years back. The 964 windshield was too large for the 911 opening. I remember because the installer could barely get it to fit, and when he did the rubber gasket didnt hold. I've heard that it may or may not work but usually will not fit. In my case it definitely did not work.

I used the 964 windshield in my 86 Carrera with the 964 weatherstrip. It has been OK but like I said the weatherstrip tends to shrink back away from the glass at the corners of the windshield. It seems OK except for that and it is smoother without the metal weatherstrip insert. It looks good too.

CIMG0184_zps97b93259.jpg Photo by DAVEG-01 | Photobucket