Stay w/ 911 or go with 930 opinions?

[Marco8]

Opinions......

I'm thinking about a 84 row 930 to replace my 88 911 cab. I love my cab and have enjoyed working on it almost as much as driving it (almost).

This 84 has 80K miles, 3 prior owners, is well maintained and looking at it closely for about 45 minutes appears to be tip-top (I will have a ppi done if I decide to take the next step). PO has complete records for the last ten years from him and the prior owner, sketchy info from the original owner. Miles appear to be actual, and car was imported within 8 months from build date, so it didn't have much time to be abused prior to being brought over.

Car is stock, and the body/interior is about about a 7.5 on a scale of 10.

Biggest concern is the syncro going into third is worn (grinds if hurried into gear).

As for my cab, it is a great ride, trouble free w/ 125.6K miles, pulls strong, doesn't leak, smoke etc and is also about a 7.5 on scale of 10 (most concours winners would be a 9 or 9.5 in my book). With the exception of replacing my pitted windshield I have completed all tasks on my project list.

So here is my decision, do I stay w/ my 911 or go w/ the 930.

Pros 930
Love the coupe, turbo look
Supercar power
Lower miles (these cars are weekenders for me and I will drive 2-3K/yr and plan to hold onto to them for several years)
Could DE it (not sure I would, but nice to have that option)

Cons 930
Dislike the 4 speed
Cost to repair the syncros
CIS
Temp tolerance (I live in the desert)
While plenty of tread tires are old and should be replaced

Pros 911
I know what I have and its pretty great
Open air driving
Pretty comfortable w/ the cost of ownership and don't expect any high cost surprises
smooth G50
great oil cooling
paid for

Cons 911
higher miles 125.6K
while I like the cab, not crazy about the lines (coupe is my 1st choice)
Cost for a new windshield
Can't DE it, unless I get a rollbar....

The cost delta to make this move would be 7 to 9K. (25K for the 930)

So guys, what do you think, stay with what I got (which is great) or roll the dice on something that could be awesome? Or heck should I look at a 993? Would appreciate opinions, thoughts, warnings, insight etc.

Thanks you very much

Marco

[DW SD]

Sounds high on the asking price for the 930, given the trans issues. Also, I think the turbo engines often last only 100k miles-ish. Maybe that is urban myth??? I'm no expert. But it, seems like many though have required rebuild pre 100k.

I've got a buddy selling a beautiful 930, which is nearly 100% sorted, was just painted and it has been upgraded with more cooling (in the nose.) The engine was also rebuilt by AASE just months ago. He just married and is buying a house, so the car is now secondary. The negative on that car is it is not stock. But it would be perfect for track use. Can't remember if it has AC, though. He is in the LA area. He's also installed aftermarket seats (lighter) RS carpeting, 17" Lindseys, huge tires, etc. It is a 78 or 79, so it has the 917 brakes / floating rotors, too. Stock would probably retain more value, but the cost of the rebuild is extremely high.

Doug

[Jims5543]

Any Turbo car = Money pit to dump you money into.

I PPI'd 3 seperate 930's when shopping for a car 2 year ago all 3 failed with engines having poor compression. I went to go look at a 4th locally and the turbo blew the morning I came to see it.

I have a Turbo RX7 that drains me bank account dry. I decided another turbo car would cost too much and bankrupt me.

If money is not an issue then go with the 930. If you plan on keeping the 930 stock and not trying to find some more HP you might be o.k. but if that tuning bug bites be ready to take out a second mortgage.

[JP911]

If I were you I would find a 930 with a (fairly) recently rebuilt motor, similar to what Doug mentions. The engine is the biggest "risk" factor with a 930 and from what I've seen on these boards is significantly more expensive to rebuild than an NA 911 motor. I also think the ROW cars carry the grey market stigma (deserved or not) that negatively affects value, so go for a US car unless you're getting a killer deal on an ROW.

[kilodawg]

I've been down this road myself. For me to come to terms with the decision I had to break it up into different categories. I have ready access to a beautiful '89 930 so I can give you some long term impressions.

First was looks which is purely subjective based on style and condition. For me the 930 wins hands down.

Second was performance. In the sense of how would the performance difference affect my ownership experience? For me the 930 is way more potential trouble if driven on the road regularly. I found myself doing things with the 930 I would never even try with my Carrera simply because the car could do them and in some subliminal way wanted to do them. Don't get me wrong, I loved the ride but it's higher risk than a Carrera each time behind the wheel. One aspect is that to get a similar sense of enjoyment with a 930 as a Carrera I found I was doing 30-50 mph more.

Third maintenance. Way more expensive to own and operate and in some ways it would be like having this Albatross always lurking overhead. These engines will get rebuilt and you will perform upgrades when it happens.

If you can accept all that go for it. I opted to keep my Carrera and add a nice '73 instead. That way I can spend the money at the time of my choosing while still enjoying my Carrera.

One other thing we have a 993 as well. The 993 is a significantly different animal than either of them so it really becomes a seperate path of consideration for you. Jumbling it all togther could make your head explode!!!

[David]

This has been brought up a few times so a search should give you more ideas.

I agree 25K for an 84 with tanny problems is a bit much. Don't be impatient, 930's come up for sale often enough and they usually don't sell real fast.

I think the biggest difference is that the 930 gives up quite a lot of nimbleness to the 911. It's surprising how different they feel. Of course the 930 power makes up for a lot of the handling.

[Marco8]

Awesome replies, thank you very much for your insight.

Couple questions,

As for maintenance cost, I was looking at parts catalog and other than maybe 100 different parts the 3.3 and 3.2 are the same engine and same stock parts (ie same failure points/parts).

So is maintenance more expensive because the turbo parts fail and these part are expensive? or is it they fail more often because of the added stress of the turbo?

Any 930 owners please chime in here w/ your experience

Kilodawg, yes if I factor the 993 in the decision it does make my head want to explode. I have driven a couple of 993s awesome modern machines, but then I look at maintenance and wow parts are a factor of several times that of a 3.2 or earlier car. And simple things like oil changes are true pain in the butt (all afternoon affair). Look at the tech articles posted here at pelican parts and it will make you jaw drop.

[Martin Arias]

Hello,
I have owned my 930 Cabrio for almost 5 years and drive it often. Maintenance is not cheap... about $1500 to $2000 per year but these cars are a work of art and make you appreciate them every time you drive them. Furthermore, it has never let me down and starts right up every time. I have driven 911s but the turbo is a superior car in almost every respect. Go for the turbo.

[DaddyGlenn]

For me the 930 is my dream car. If I had the option, I'd jump at it.

BUT...I would shop for one that has no mechanical issue and a recent rebuild. The old adage of "buy the best you can afford" applies. I do all my own maintenance and would even rebuild an engine if needed but the parts can be a killer to your bank account. Look at the cost of things like brake rotors, clutch, and other pieces that are prone to wear out.

That's my $.02.

[dyerkes]

Assuming you use the 930 as often as you would a normally aspirated 911, and that you don't track the car then, if you do your own maintenance, then the cost is virtually the same. The only real wear item you have that is different from the NA cars is the Turbo (known to last 40 to 100+K miles). Other than that, an engine re-seal will be required probably twice as often as a result of the increased stress on the seals.

I think these cars have developed an aura of "expensive" to maintain, primarily because of their lack of use. Any 911 that is used very little will tend to need more maintenance than one that is used on a frequent basis. Where they become more expensive is in the "while your in there" syndrome. Too often, Turbo owners (myself included) often find a lame excuse to upgrade a perfectly good part with one that will provide an HP increase. Of course, since you upgrade that one part, you must upgrade another so that you can take full advantage of the other part being replaced, and so-on and so-on. These cars are freightening fast out-of-the-box, and are even more so, when you start tweaking them.

Good luck on your decision,
David
1986 911 Turbo

[javadog]

Marco,

I'll give you my perspective, for what it's worth. As background, I started driving 911s and 930s over 25 years ago and own examples of both. I own both US and ROW versions of both cars. Some of them I bought new and have owned for 20+ years.

Some of what I have to say might irritate some people. That isn't my intent; it's just that I have a few strong opinions based upon living with these cars for decades and I hate to see some of the same old urban myths or wives's tales passed on. Many problems I read about on this board aren't the fault of the cars, per se. They are caused by people that own them and don't drive them and care for them properly. Idiots, in other words. Or, people suffer because they have their head up their *** when they buy a used car and end up with a lousy one. Hindsight is pretty good. Or, they get screwed by getting a PPI from a shop that doesn't know what they are looking at, or are simply doing shoddy work. It happens. There's a guy on a club national tech board that I think is a complete idiot. In my experience, if he doesn't know the answer to a question, he'll make one up. Not the guy I'd want working on one of my cars....

There is a lot of bull**** on the internet about the 930. Most of it gets handed down from people that have never owned a 930. Some of it comes from people that have bought an abused car and suffered as a result.

I have found that a 930 isn't really significantly more expensive to maintain than a 911 of comparable vintage, as most of them don't rack up serious mileage when driven as a weekend fun car. Think about it, 90% of the parts are the same. Those that aren't, don't get replaced very often. I've never replaced a failed turbo. I've never worn out a brake rotor. I am equally easy on clutches, never worn one out. You get the idea. Oil changes, brake fluid changes, occasional valve adjustments and the like pretty much cover most of my operating costs. Not much breaks on these cars, unless you're a bit hard on them, or run them on the track.

I personally enjoy the 4 speed. It shifts much better than the average 5 speed, if the linkage and trans internals are in good shape. There is no reason that a 930 should need synchro work at 80k miles unless an idiot owned it at one point in its life. A sad fact of life is that a Porsche gearbox likes a little pause in neutral when shifting and most people shift them faster than necessary. They will take this, given the design of their synchros, but the parts will wear faster as a result. I've never understood what saving a tenth of a second, or two, on every shift really gets you, on the street. Clue number 1, for you. Fixing this will not be cheap, as no transmission work ever is. In my opinion, it wouldn't be a bad idea to replace all the worn parts, while you're in there and that's where it gets expensive.

As for temperature tolerance, if you drive the car in a temperature where you are comfortable, the car will be fine, if it has the right cooler on it. I live in Oklahoma, which isn't as hot as where you live, but it does get over 100 in July and August. Mine are fine at that temp, although I find any 911 barely tolerable when it's that hot outside. I have never bothered to upgrade the stock A/C components on any of my cars yet and I have actually removed the A/C on one of them. Stock 911 A/C is useless when it's really hot outside, so I roll the windows down. Not an issue for me. I have found that a ROW 911 or 930 will run cooler than the US equivalent. A 28 tube brass cooler works the best, in my type of driving (street, not track.) My '80 930, so equipped, never gets much above 180 degrees.

I am a big proponent of leaving the 930 stock. I prefer the feel of a stock car, although I own both stock and modified cars.

I don't feel that the 930 "needs" to go faster than a 911. Nor does it need to pass everything on the road. One thing you will have to get used to is the fact that the brakes are a lot more powerful. They can lock a wheel in a heartbeat and so a 930 is a little intolerant of an owner that jumps hard on the brake pedal in a panic stop. You have to be very progressive with brake application. Normal braking isn't an issue.

I used to occasionally track my cars with the Porsche club, in a DE type event or time trial (glorified autocross, held on a track.) I have since gotten wiser and decided that the only thing I will track is a dedicated track car. Street/track cars are usually not very safe, as few people install the safety gear properly in a street car. I'll go out on a limb here and say I've never seen a correct seat/harness/cage installation in a car that does street duty. Period. Although, I have heard many different justifications for the compromises that are made. Some are quite foolish.

Also, the cars need lots of work to the cooling of the engine and brakes to last very many laps on the track. It's not worth it to me to use one car for both street and track. You can do what you like here. If you track a 930, be prepared to spend a little money.

I have a philosophy when buying any Porsche. Buy the best one you can find. There are no bargains to be had by buying a car that needs work. You'll eventually end up spending more money to get one 100% than if you bought a close-to-perfect one in the first place. I tend to look for lower mileage cars. A 930 with less than 50k is a better starting point for me than one with 80k or more. The difference in price isn't that great.

When buying a ROW car, assume that the car got used hard every mile it spent overseas. I prefer to find one that was imported here as a new car. They are out there, if you look. Lots of Porsches were imported as new cars in the 80's.

If you're cab is fully sorted out, apart from the windshield, you know what you have. If you buy another car, you will be needing to spend money on something. I have't yet bought a car from someone that needed nothing. Never, not once. And I buy the best ones that I can find.

Lastly, I do prefer the coupes to the targas and cabs. I've owned a couple 911s that weren't coupes and I can say with certainty that I'll never buy another one. Personal preference.

Cheers,
JR

[930LDR]

I think the point here is that as with any car, including carrera's, if you purchase a car that has been neglected it is going to end up costing you an arm and a leg. The 930 will cost more for maintenance and repairs a xsparts cost more and there is more plumbing that needs to be removed from the engine just to do normal stuff.

I also think that you should think about what you are looking for. If you are interested in a bone stock 930 and have no desire to modify it... I might suggest sticking with the G50 Carerra. Much more responsive around town. Sure it will give up a bunch of excitement at the higher end of things to the turbo, but all around it is probably a more livable sports car.

On the other hand if you are willing to look at 930's that have had the basic bolt-ons done (headers, K27, intercooler, 1B, etc.)... its not even a contest. The 930s' fun factor just goes thru the roof.

My current 930 is my second 911. The first was a 964 cab. If I could have a second fun car I would buy a 964 C2 Coupe for daily use and reserve the 930 for weekend / track time. The combination of a G50 and more low end torque is just great for around town driving. Given that I can only have one right now... its the 930 all the way.

[WERK I]

JR,
Very good write-up. I agree with most of what you had to say, except;
**********************
"I tend to look for lower mileage cars. A 930 with less than 50k is a better starting point for me than one with 80k or more. The difference in price isn't that great."
**********************

My advice is to not even look at the mileage on the car. It tends to prejudice the buying process on a collector car. Let's face it, if a 20 year old Porsche has only 50K of miles on it, that's just over 2K miles per year. Not exactly a weekend driver.....
Go over the car thoroughly, if you know a lot about 911's. If not, have someone you trust and is knowledgeable do it for you. You'll save a ton of money. Go over the suspension, the brakes, drivetrain and electrical, and yes, the body.

Finally, the cost of ownership of a 930. Agree with everyone on the parts being about the same price as NA 911's. Insurance will be higher, it is on the highest step with most insurance companies. The only thing you will find yourself going through faster than NA 911's is
TIRES. I go through a complete every two years and I am not a high mileage driver.

[ChrisBennet]

I enjoy working on Carrera's but frankly, working on a 930 is a real pain.
-Chris

[javadog]

Originally posted by WERK-I
My advice is to not even look at the mileage on the car. It tends to prejudice the buying process on a collector car.
Insurance will be higher, it is on the highest step with most insurance companies.

The only thing you will find yourself going through faster than NA 911's is
TIRES. I go through a complete every two years and I am not a high mileage driver.

I guess my point about the mileage was this; The market doesn't support a wide swing in values between a car with low miles and one with high miles. Therefore, the lower mileage cars, all things being equal, tend to be a better bargain, in the long term. Condition IS more important than mileage, although I've never laid eyes on a higher mileage that that was nice enough for me to buy. Maybe they are out there; I've just never seen one personally.

There's a million little things on any Porsche that deteriorate with time and miles. Most of them get ignored, until they cause a problem. I have noticed that, in my stable of cars, the higher mileage ones are needing a lot more odds and ends than the lower mileage ones. None of them prevent the car from being used and so most people wouldn't even notice them. It's only when you go looking for them, that they become obvious. I've spent the last couple of years working on a partial restoration of a '77 Carrera 3.0. It has around 90k on it. There are many things that I have replaced on this car that are just fine on my cars with half that mileage. Some of it is in the 'while you're there category."

As for insurance, for a weekend driver type of use, I strongly recommend everybody try to obtain a collector policy. I spend $350 to $400 per year to insure my turbos. The Carrera 3.0 costs me less than $200.

JR

[David]

The biggest expense with the 930's is adding hp. You can add tons of power by throwing money at it and many of us fall prey to that, myself included. If you're thinking about high hp, just buy a car that's already been modded, you'll save a ton of money.

[rfn026]

If you like the coupe body style think about a Turbo Look car. You get the turbo body style with the non-turbo engine. That always seemed to be the best of both worlds.

Richard

[911boost]

Having owned a 3.2 Carrera Cab, and now somewhat of a 930, I can agree with a lot of the comments made here. My 92 turbo only had 33,000 miles on it when I bought it. It had a lot of very expensive mods to it, that were installed by a blind mechanic. Meaning, the parts are really nice, the twin plugging was done correctly, but at some point someone had poorly installed a set of Magnecor wires, the coils were not really mounted smartly, the overboost solenoid was just grounded out, that kind of thing. I had a very thorough PPI done, and went into the purchase knowing I was going to have to spend some $$ to correct some issues. In the end, it did cost me about $3,500 after I bought it, but like I said, I knew about it, and had planned financially accordingly.

From a driving experience, I looked at a couple of 930's prior to finding my 92 turbo. Since I commute 60 miles each way to work, I wanted something that was a little more refined than the 930, but still had the rawness to it with regards to power delivery. The 964 based turbo was exactly what I wanted, it has the classic lines of the 911, and the interior of the 993.

With that being said, it definitely cost more than the $25K ROW 930 you are looking at. If it were me, I'd pass on this car, and find another one.

Bill

[matt13421342]

The 930 will appreciate at a greater rate (and ultimately more) than your cab will. Not that you should EVER buy a Porsche based on its investment or resale potential, but it's something to think about if you are planning to keep the car a long time. Besides, a 930 is for destroying mountain roads, and a 911 cabriolet is for destroying your girlfriend's hairstyle.

[Miguel Antonett]

I've had six 911s in 35 years including one 930. Guess what? Five 911s come and go but the 930 is in the garage...I've had that car for 20+ years and will keep it for many more to come. After you drive a 930 you'll never go back to a 911. The maintenace deal, I believe is a myth. If you treat the car well the car will pay you back the same way. I don't believe 930s are expensive to maintain. Definitely "no substitute".

Go for the 930!