george's vs. B&B's

[Facey]

Hey guys
i am wondering as to which will be more suited to my engine.

its a 3.5L, and i have heard that george's headers are the best, does that mean better then the long collector 1 3/4" 321 S.S. B&B headers i have now?

the headers i'm looking at are georges 1 3/4", looks to be mild steel, w/o heater boxes, not that i feel the heater boxes on my B&B's do anything.

just wondering.
thanks
Nick

[mb911]

georges are way better.. No contest IMHO

[Jeff Alton]

Better how? Workmanship? Design? Make more torque? Make more power? I have always wondered how the longer vs shorter primaries affect things on our motors and if it changes depending on cam selection.

Cheers

[Facey]

well, i'm not happy with my present cam anyways...

and i think i could maybe save some money by doing this switch...if there is a possibility of gains...the switch is forsure...

(well, if there are muffler options ?)

[Steve@Rennsport]

Nick:

George's headers are all we use & sell anymore,.........

We do optimize them depending on certain applications but they are really the best bang for the buck.

[Steve@Rennsport]

Originally posted by catca
Better how? Workmanship? Design? Make more torque? Make more power? I have always wondered how the longer vs shorter primaries affect things on our motors and if it changes depending on cam selection.

Cheers

Brother Jeff:

George's are really a better design and his workmanship is excellent. More HP and torque than others for most applications.

These are mild steel though, and for maximum durability/longevity, we have them coated with a ceramic-metallic material, both inside & out.

[mb911]

Originally posted by Steve@Rennsport
Brother Jeff:

George's are really a better design and his workmanship is excellent. More HP and torque than others for most applications.

These are mild steel though, and for maximum durability/longevity, we have them coated with a ceramic-metallic material, both inside & out.

ditto

[Facey]

how much does coating costs.

and can the coating be applied to used wheels?


-is there an easy way to add electric defrost or something? (not use heater boxes, but still have defrost....i don't need to be warm, just need to be able to see).

thanks for the replies...i might do the switch.....

Nick

[Jim Smolka]

The trouble with electric heat is that on a 12 VDC swith, power is limited by (V^2)/R or V*I. Lets say 50 amps at 12 VDC only gives out about 600 watts of power, less than 1/2 heat from a hair dryer. Of course a cars system may generate closer to 14 VDC, but the same laws apply.

If you want heat with headers, then make a 'box' out of cardboard to go around the headers that serve as a template for fabrication of set of heat exchanger boxes. Then have a local shop make sheetmetal boxes out of the cardboard templates.

[rbuswell]

Wanted to take a look.

[RickM]

No apparent website.

Here's contact info:

George Narbel
European Racing Headers
1010 N. Stephanie St.
Unit C-7
Henderson, NV 89014
(702) 433-9189

[Mahler9th]

My friend is a well-known engine builder and uses George's headers. A number of us in the Porsche Racing Club use them.

I have a set for sale: One pair of 1-3/4 inch 911 headers, made by George's European Headers. Good condition. $350 or best offer, plus shipping.

I am considering moving up to 1 7/8 inch for the new cams I will be running.

I can be reached at: Mahler9th@aol.com. I live in the SF Bay Area.

- Mike

[Bill Verburg]

w/ smog cams the headers aren't critical,

Georges are essentiall large tube SSI's in mild steel rather than ss

The collectors on Georges need some work, there are more efficint ways to join the pipes

B&B needs work in that the primary tubes are not equal length, but they do have a better collector design and heat.

S-Car-Go currently has the best designs on the market for our cars(sams heat), tres expensive though.

In general longer primaries enhance lower rpm power, shorter primaries enhance upper rpm power, larger tubes enhance at the top, smaller tubes enhance at the bottom

[Facey]

i noticed that the collectors were not the circular convergent design that i have on my own B&B's.


-damn you had to tell everyone you had a set for sale, those are the used one's that i'm wondering if they can be ceramic coated. so we might be in touch very soon...just figureing out a few things.-

thanks bill for the details, however to sum up, geroges will enhance mid-upper power because of the tuned and shorter primaries, but will lose some low end because of the collectors?

-and save some money...

[Bill Verburg]

thanks bill for the details, however to sum up, geroges will enhance mid-upper power because of the tuned and shorter primaries, but will lose some low end because of the collectors?

I doubt that you will see a difference between them if you are running mufflers, yes, georges will run better w/ open cones.

[Steve@Rennsport]

Wellllllll,....there is a lot more to it than that,...

Many factors influence how any individual headers will work and its not quite fair to characterize a particular product as enhancing mid-upper power.

I will honestly tell you that after 30 years of building 911 race engines, I still learn new things on each motor when they are on the dyno undergoing testing. Some generalizations have proven to not be accurate in most cases,...

I would simply offer anyone to consider each engine's configuration in its own merit in the selection of which components to use. Beyond factory specifications, things begin to change.

[mb911]

Originally posted by Facey
i noticed that the collectors were not the circular convergent design that i have on my own B&B's.


-damn you had to tell everyone you had a set for sale, those are the used one's that i'm wondering if they can be ceramic coated. so we might be in touch very soon...just figureing out a few things.-

thanks bill for the details, however to sum up, geroges will enhance mid-upper power because of the tuned and shorter primaries, but will lose some low end because of the collectors?

-and save some money...

don't worry nick we could exchange what you currently have for a muffler for another!

[Facey]

Originally posted by mb911
don't worry nick we could exchange what you currently have for a muffler for another!

always on the ball eh?

i just need to check on a few minor detail before making any binding agreements.


thanks for all the help everyone.

[Jeff Alton]

If someone could come up with a decent heater box to fit around George's headers wouldn't that be the best of both worlds?? Ben, can this be done?

I went B&B because I need heat and SSI was too small for my 3.4.

Cheers

[Facey]

the whole heat/defrost situation is the small detail that i am still looking into.

living on the island heat isn't a bog issue, however defrost is, so i'm not doing the switch until i've found :
a) the proper steps for in and out ceramic coating, and where nearby can do it

and
b) how i can get defrost with georges headers.


thanks again everyone for all the replies,