911/928/951-A day at Laguna Seca

an '84 911 carrera, '87 928 s4 5-spd and '88 951 turbo s are raced at laguna seca racetrack on a nice warm & dry summer day. all cars are dead stock, use standard "non-sports package" suspension and use the same brand and model of tires. the race duration is 10 laps. the three drivers have the same skill level and equal amount of track experience.

which car comes out on top at the end of the race and why? is it a close race all around, do two run noticably faster or does one clearly come out ahead?

The 911 guy wins the race, and has the most fun. The 951 guy complains about his tires, and tries to convince the Carrera driver that his car's weight distribution is better. The 928 guy has the most comfortable drive home.

Eventually, the 951 guy sells his rattling bucket of bolts and buys a 1973 Carrera RS. Weeks later, the 928 guy sell his car and buys a 1997 C4S.

The next time out at Laguna Seca, the three 911 variants have a great time driving some of the best sportscars ever made.

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Jack Olsen
1973 911 T (3.6) sunroof coupe

[This message has been edited by JackOlsen (edited 01-06-2001).]

Upon their arrival at Laguna Seca, the ex-951 guy reveals that he's always been a 911 fan, it's just that he got sidetracked with the 951 because his wife said it looked better, while the proud new owner of the C4S believes he's now got the best of both worlds: the predictability of a 928, and the litheness of a 911.

So, the three boys get out onto the track, and the flag falls...

To cut a potentially long story short, the ex-951 guy in the 73’ RS, the lightest 911 out of the bunch, wins, but only by a whisker over the heavier but stickier 97’ C4S, that in turn, only pips the 84' Carrera at the line due (only) to its straight-line speed advantage.

But hey, they all win!


Matt Holcomb




[This message has been edited by Matt Holcomb (edited 01-06-2001).]

Have fun, and joke around, but realistically the 944 turbo S would beat both the other cars, with the 928 following closely. At my other post I said that the 911 would be second, but I didn't realize it was the 928 S4. SO, the 911 would be at the back of the pack.

Jack, "tries to convince the Carrera driver that his car's weight distribution is better", if the 951 owner is TRYING to convince the 911 driver that his weight distribution is better, than the 911 driver is a bonehead, 50/50 is always better. If one doesn't think so, well, he's got problems.

BTW, a stock 73 911 RS shouldn't even dream about catching a stock 951, let alone a 993...

Besides, for the price of a stock 84 911 Carrera, a 944 turbo S (including purchase price) can be made to beat the 993 silly...

BTW, keep in mind there are those who switch from 911s to 944s, but guess what, they don't hang out on the 911 boards!!!

Well, you all take care, and no I don't mind if you don't agree with me...
Ahmet

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It's all the driver...

Would someone pull out the Nintendo and settle this thing.

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Robert Stoll
83 SC
83 944

Direct quote from the 944 board:

"Guys,
Here's a good way to settle your questions.
This is taken from the POC Time Trial at Laguna Seca August 1999. These are stock class cars driven by competent drivers, some are even Club Racers (Leonard for example was my very first POC driving instructor and is also a formidable Club Racer).

J-IMPROVED CLASS (stock engine, some minor suspension mods allowed):
Brent Harnish: Car #255 1:50.007 '87 944T
Leonard Schenkel: Car 226 1:52:361 '87 911

K-PRODUCTION CLASS (minor engine mods like header, chips, intake mods, suspension is allowed significant mods):
Mike Avitt: Car 452 1:54:658 '86 928

I couldn't get the exact years of cars you were referring to but that should give you a close enough approximation of the times.
If I were to race a stock class car at Laguna Seca, the 944 Turbo would be my first choice. The 911 would just be a blast to drive, and the 928 would surprise me with so much power and so much comfort.

Regards,
David
REALRIDE RACING www.RealRide.com/racing
(visit our Discussion Board for Racing Enthusiasts)"



And that's not even a turbo S! I hope we're all feeling OK... Take that you 911 RS!!!
Ahmet

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It's all the driver...

chill ahmet, chill. remember where you are. remember what emmitt smith did to terrell owens when terrell showed blatant disrespect in dallas' house? :-(

the reason i posed this question both here and in the 944 bbs was because i'm looking for a car. one well-suited to the track, as i'll be driving (not racing) sears point next month and laguna seca soon afterwards, and hopefully regularly in the future. all three of these cars are in the same general price range (well, the 3.2 is a little more), and i'd love more input.

Get the 911. There's a reason Ahmet hangs out here with the big boys.

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Mark Szabo
1986 911 Targa 3.2
1987 Escort 5-speed 1.9
The Porsche Owners Gallery

As a winning player on this board keeps saying, " It's all in the driver", but he owns a 911.

Well, guys after being involved with many club races and drivers ed series, its simple. With those cars described, the 944T wins, then the 911, then the 928. Sorry... The 951 with a chip, and a few other mods can easily be over 300HP. The 928 is a monster on the straights, but it cant turn. Now if you want to compare apples to apples, or turbos to turbos, compare a 911T to a 944T. BIG DIFFERENCE. like 8-10 seconds a lap at Road Atlanta.
Marc

911 t of what year? If you wanna compare appleas to apples, maybe the year of manufacture of the apples whouldn't be too far apart eh? How'bout the price being closer too? How much is, say aa 78 a 3.3 911 turbo? $20-25k? For that much money, a 951 will be pretty darn fast. Faster than a stock 964 turbo... A 993 turbo? Not there yet, but that'll give you a lot more money to put on the 951...

Now blackfoot, I'm sure you're tired of my 951 vs. "anything", (pro 944)posts, but if you're buying a car, why not get the cheaper one? A 944 turbo should be much cheaper, and more forgiving on a race track (watch the boost!), and you'd have money left over for mods. (If money is an object). Also, I don't think you'd like a 928 that much, specially after the more hardcore sports cars you've owned.

PS: I drive a 944, but yes there is a reason why I hang out here. I'll be in the market for a 9xx next season, and need to look at this situation objectively! +Never said the 911s aren't fun, don't sound good, or don't look good. A proper sports car has to be good at many things... And all but performance (and even that at times) of them are subjective!
Ahmet

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It's all the driver...

If your talking dollars... No question a 951 is faster for the buck. Ive ridden in many that were FAST as hell! If your talking equally prepared cars,(suspension, etc) Sorry Ahmet, a 911 is a MUCH better setup.
The Supercup cars are +/- 15 seconds a lap faster than the Rothmans Cup 944's we ran against.
Marc
p.s. there is no such thing as a 964 turbo. Its a 965.

Preferences between the 3 cars are highly subjective. If I was looking for an inexpensive Porsche and didn't car if Porsche had stopped producing the model and didn't care if it was somewhat homely looking, I'd go for the 944. If I was looking for pure horsepower and didn't mind giving up a little in the handling package I would probably go for a 928, which are sweet looking with lots of creature comforts. Now if I was looking for the car that the Porsche tradition was built around, the one that keeps evolving and where Porsche pours most of it's egineering dollars, that has great looks and aerodynamics there is only one choice for me - that's the 911.

Bill Carcot
1979 911SC
Diablo Region, P.C.A.

Well the late 944 Turbos are a lot of bang for the buck. But there are faster Hondas out there. The 911s (and variations) are bullies on fast, windy tracks. Absolute bullies.

But if you can look at any 911 and agonize over...well...maybe a 944... then you don't feel the same way about them as I do.

the 944 is much more forgiving though. Much more. It's a beginners' race car.

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'83 SC

just offhand...

the value of 944 turbos is starting to go up after depreciating at the standard rate like most cars. seems like within the last year or two there has been a lot of interest into these "supercars on a budget". if you want a 944 turbo... NOW is the time to get one, and NOW is the time to modify it. i talked to a very knowledgeable PCA club racer that had $8000 into his 944 turbo... that included the price of the car. the weekend i was at the track with him, only 3 cars passed him:

an IMSA 968 Turbo race car
a 968 Turbo Cup car
a modified and lowered 996 running slicks.

no doubts about it, the 944 turbos are FAST cars. i know 2 people locally with them that say the cars are easy to get speeding tickets in because you hit 100mph by the time most people get to 40mph. i don't doubt them one bit.

another offhand:

i've seen 400-500Hp 944 turbo race cars for under $10,000. the practical, logical, thorough-thinking side of me kicked in only minutes before i considered buying one such car for $7,000. if you shop carefully, you can find 430Hp 944 turbo daily drivers for under $25,000.

that's A LOT of "bang for the buck". no wonder the prices are going back up.
944 turbo project car... http://www.ionet.net/~dlindsey/warbonnet/project/project.html

and here's some dyno charts along with some 350+horsepower daily-driver "grocery getter" 944 turbos: http://home.san.rr.com/myzone/monsters.htm
350horses, 379 ft/lbs of torque?!? WOW, is there anyone on this page that is getting that level of power out of their car.. a STREET car weighing 2800lbs nevertheless?!?

obin



[This message has been edited by Obin Robinson (edited 01-06-2001).]

Ahmet,

No way a stock 1973 911 Carrera RS Touring could show the door to a 951 or a C4S? I beg to differ.

I've been in the thick of a few tightly contested races - clusters of Porsches including: 944's, 951's, 928's, Carrera 2.7’s, 3.2 Carreras, 930’s, 993's and GT3’s, and if there's one thing I've learned second hand (first hand if I had better tires and more experience) is that the lighter the car the quicker it is through the turns.

Of course, a 73’ RS Touring can't overcome the straight-line speed advantage of a modified 951, but if both the RS and the 951 are stock, then there is no contest. I’m not kidding - I’ve seen it with my own eyes.

These are the comparative weights for the three Porsches in question:

1. 1973 911 Carrera RS Touring – 1050kg
2. 1988 944 Turbo S – 1350kg
3. 1997 911 Carrera 4S – 1450kg


Matt Holcomb

You're saying that if budget is no issue than the 911's the better platform? NO, I disagree, then it won't really matter which one you start with (an 84 911 vs an 88 944 turbo S). But there has been many advancements over the years, I cannot deny that the 996 tt would be a petter platform to start with, (even only if it's for chasis stiffness, and bigger displacement for the engine) in a quest to the ultimate race car.

However, I think that the reason 911s seem like they can be made to go faster than 951s is because there were more of them made, and more people think 911s are the *****... Think about it, it's possible to get a sub 11 second air cooled beetle, street driven. Is that because the engine is awesome, and the chasis is great (don't get me wrong, I like them, and definately think they're a good design), no but there sure are more people interested in makin' em fast as a bat out of hell...

Anyway, a stock 911 RS will not keep up with a 951. It just won't, the car's worse at braking, handling, and acceleration, not just the latter. (and on stock tires, per the original post, NO WAY!)

N11Porsche:

"Now if I was looking for the car that the Porsche tradition was built around, the one that keeps evolving and where Porsche pours most of it's egineering dollars, that has great looks and aerodynamics there is only one choice for me - that's the 911."
Well, if you wanna pay extra for publicity, and what Porsche thinks they can make more money doing, then sure, go ahead. BTW, a 944 turbo is more aerodynamic than a 73 RS, or an 84 911... (Also, it has a MUCH smaller frontal area than either, which comes into play at higher speed acceleration/top speed).

BTW, I wonder how much money was put into the development of the 911 SC, vs the 944 turbo, it just might surprise you! These cars were intended to replace the 911. They accelerated faster, they stopped sooner, they handled better, they were more quiet, more reliable(expected to be, no comment), and yet still fun to play with, better emissions, first car with dual airbags, etc...


Superman:

"But there are faster hondas out there" (944 turbos can be made to go pretty darn fast, +there is hondas that can go faster than any production car, how's an 8 sec 1/4 mile sound?).

I think the 911s are cool, and they're more challanging, and involving, yes, most certainly. However, do you like a car that likes to bite back? Or do you like to play with the limits of your car, being able to expect, and count on what it's going to do. At ANY time!!! We're all different people, with different tastes. I personally like the idea of being able to back off the gas in mid corner. Not just the streets either, the unexpected can happen, anywhere, even when a hardcore driver is driving a hardcore car, through a tight turn. An accident on a race track, deer on public road, WHATEVER!!!

I must say though, didn't see any offensive comments, and for a change I feel like I'm a bit agressive (instead of the respondents), and thank you for that!

No hard feelings, we're discussing certain years of Porsches, specifically on the race track, where the sound of the engine, the looks, etc. aren't as important...

We all have different tastes, and different preferences. Personally, I don't have a problem with either, but as you can tell, I'm more positive towards the 944... BUT I have had the pleasure of driving a few 911s, and getting a ride in a 73 RS, driven by a VERY potent driver at an auto-x. It was, well, great! If you compared a 944 turbo to a 3000gt, then I'd get really pissed!

Happy Porscheing,
Ahmet

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It's all the driver...

Why do 944 buffs come to 911 boards and get debates going? I've never seen a 911 owner that feels the need to do the same on 944 boards. To each his own. (by the way, why did Porsche discontinue the 944?)I have a great appreciation for all the cars under the Porsche banner. Each was designed to meet the needs of a certain type of driver. I got sucked into this one - but I am out of here

Bill Carcot
1979 911SC
Diablo Region, P.C.A.

Why do 944 buffs come to 911 boards and get debates going? I've never seen a 911 owner that feels the need to do the same on 944 boards. To each his own. (by the way, why did Porsche discontinue the 944?)I have a great appreciation for all the cars under the Porsche banner. Each was designed to meet the needs of a certain type of driver. I got sucked into this one - but I am out of here

Bill Carcot
1979 911SC
Diablo Region, P.C.A.

Well, a guy looking to buy a car started the post, to get info, nothing wrong with that. FYI, the same was posted at the 944 end of the board too...

Anyway, I hang out here to pick up a thing or two about the 911s, and hang out.

I defend the 944 cause I think it's underappriciated, +not everybody know just what's so good about these cars...

Though yes, I respect it, "To each his own"...

Hey, my license-less drive (to keep everything going) in my 944 led me to make a 911 call for a house on fire (saw it just passing by, it was still inside the house), and possibly save some money for the guy who'se house burnt! No kidding...

See, I knew I was meant to drive a 944! (Kidding)...
Ahmet

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It's all the driver...