I Need a 3.2

My mechanic is recommending I replace my 3.0 with a 3.2 because it will be cheaper than a rebuild, and I will immediately see a huge increase in HP, and the ability to add significantly more in the future. My question is this: What will experience teach me about this procedure? Shoudl I upgrade to a 3.2 with 60k on it, or rebuild my 3.0 with 93k on it? I plan on keeping this car a long time after this. Also, and most importantly, what would be a reasonable price for a 3.2? Also, what is a reasonable cost for the swap?

Thanks!

magilla,

Just curious, what's wrong with the engine you have now? Seems to me that 93K on a 911SC 3.0 is just getting broken in!

jrdavid68
1980 911SC
1986 Carrera

There is oil leaking from the gasket around the base of the cylinder. It is consuming a qt of oil every 2 tanks of gas. I knew about it when I bought the car, but the guy that did the pre purchase played it down some. I definitely got burned a little.

Magilla,

Considering that the 3.2 engine is 11.5 to 17.5 years old, and are known to have valve guide and Dilivar stud 'issues' ... I have to question the logic of your 'advisor' on this engine swap/repair decision! Does the mechanic have a vested interest, i.e., does he have the 3.2 sitting out back just waiting for the 'right' customer to come along?

I would have serious questions for someone suggesting that a top-end rebuild would cost more than an engine swap! If you did your own work, a top-end rebuild need not cost more than $1000-$1200. Perhaps $2500-$3000, by a shop not 'SLANTING' the estimate/quote!

------------------
Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa

[This message has been edited by Early_S_Man (edited 01-04-2001).]

Interesting! He is quoting 60 hrs to reseal the engine- $4800 for labor and $500+ for parts. He also mentions that the cylinders, valves, etc may need work, potentially bringing the overall job ("done right") to $10k- $12k! The swap would be the cost of the engine plus $2500. Am I getting screwed (again)?

There's much to say...

First, our cars use oil. They are designed to, and a quart in two tankfulls is not an excessive amount of oil, I believe.

Second, Leaking cylinders could be caused by loose or broken head studs. I don't see any broken head studs on my car. No head nuts fell out of the valve covers when I took them off. So I'm leaving them alone. If I thought I had a problem like a broken head stud, and I was ready to spend $10k to fix it, I would SURELY put a wrench on those nuts and try to torque them down. If they twist off, fine, and I spend $10k. If they simply cinch up like they're supposed to, my leak will probably stop and the $10k will go back into my pocket.

I hate to see someone crack a 3 liter before a quarter million miles. If my engine ( which runs fine at 160k miles) were to need rebuilding, I'd be asking the same questions as you. I'd consider the 3.2. I'd probably go with the 3.2.

------------------
'83 SC

In all seriousness, I think you need to find another shop ... with a bit of research, maybe you can find one that is not a crook! Those quoted prices for a top-end refresh of an SC are nothing short of Highway Robbery!!!

I'm sure that you would want to send off the six heads to have the valve guides replaced, and a valve job ... those are the ONLY things I see a need for in the way of machine work! Maybe a resurface of your flywheel, too, but that is about it! Replace the bottom row of Dilivar head studs with OEM factory steel studs just like the top row, and leave the top row alone, per Bruce Anderson, and rering the pistons ... that is all I really see your engine needing!

I really think your so-called 'mechanic' is trying to take advantage of you! Do you read Excellence, specifically, Bruce Anderson's Tech Column? You could take vacation time, fly to California, stay in a motel for six-seven nights, take Bruce Anderson's Engine Rebuild Class seminar, buy all of the needed tools, factory manuals, and all of the replacement parts at list price at a dealer ... for a LOT LESS than what your mechanic has quoted to you!!!

If you happen to think what I am saying sounds crazy, just ask in your area for the opinions of PCA members with a few years experience with 911's.

------------------
Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa

I wish I knew if you were...No way it should cost you 10-12k for a rebuild, I mean come on, but then again?

I got screwd by CA cars where I bought mine, so I know the feeling. What's more, the first mechanic I took my car to screwed me as well, and I think he billed me for work that was never done--it's just my opinion.
He changed parts that didn't solve problems, and then just left me with the new parts and billed me for them.
He also left blue shop towels in my heater blower (found them myself when I took over the car maintenance), and left them scattered all over the top end...like an air cooled engine doesn't have enough trouble trying to keep cool without some jerks offs shop towels in there.
Anyway...

I know it goes on all over the place.
What do warren and the rest of the gang say? I wouldn't put ONE penny into that effort until it's all digested right here on the BBS. So what if your engine leaks for a month longer, and with what this guy's telling you, you might as well just drive the 3.0 until it explodes.

I suppose he's going to keep your 3.0 right?


------------------
Kurt B
1984 911 Carrera Cabriolet
75 914 1.8

So the concensus is that I am fine for now, and that I should get the head studs checked again and tightened if necessary. If one is broken, then going with the 3.2 is a good answer? What should I expect to pay for an engine? The mechanic is recommending one off an '85 with 62k on it.

PS- You guys are awesome!

Okay, now I've read the replies posted while I was distracted, and yes, your mechanic is asking you to 'bend over and grab your ankles.' $12k is a ridiculous price for an engine rebuild.

Even before reading the above posts, I had decided to reply again, to tell that I have a feeling there is nothing wrong with your engine whatsoever. There is a little oily gunk at the base of some of my cylinders also. This is no reason to rebuild a motor, IMHO. And if it were, it would be a 'top end' job as Warren described, which would cost nowhere near $6k, and would result in an engine with LOTS of miles in its future.

Your existing engine, I have a feeling, has LOTS more miles left in it.

------------------
'83 SC

He said he could get $700 for my 3.0. Any suggestions on a reputable shop in New England? This guy came recommended from a PCA member (with a 944). Most of the places around here (I checked with 3 different places) are saying they can make an appointment 2 months out for a job like this. As I am pretty new to Porsches (I got this puppy 3 weeks ago), I am not yet reading Excellence. I just signed up for the PCA< but have not recieved the materials yet.

That $700 figure is a BLATANT LIE!!!

Nothing 944-only owners say about 911's or mechanics can be trusted! And, not every mechanic that works on 944's can be trusted with a 911! I think you have enough evidence at hand to show yourself or prove that point!

Undoubtedly, your mechanic talked about your SC engine as being obsolete technology, and expensive to work on! I think you have evidence of fraud , and I believe a complaint should be filed with the BBB!

------------------
Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa

Wow! My course of action is at least somewhat clearer. Avoid this Dope and get a second opinion, at the very least.

You guys have saved me some serious $$$$. I will have some one else take a look and make an estimate, and as always, KEEP YOU INFORMED!

700$ for a 3.0? Oh my god that's unbelievable. I think my 914 1.8 4 cylinder VW POS is worth 700$ (if you throw in the tranny!).
Unbelieveable.
A 3.0 in miserable shape is worth 2k isn't it?
I've never heard of anyone anywhere offering a 6 cylinder Porsche engine in any condition for less than 2,000 bucks. Have you?


------------------
Kurt B
1984 911 Carrera Cabriolet
75 914 1.8

For $12,000 Dollars you can get you 3.2 comlety rebuilt and have 600 HP,so in your case, a good advice NOT to deal with that person....

Run magilla run! That "mechanic" must have liked the way you looked when you turned around because he really wants to give it to you.

For 12K you could probably pick up a good turbo motor, redue your interior and have some left over suspension.
-----------------
Paul
78SC Targa

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=535988161&r=0&t=0

Here you go!!


[This message has been edited by 89911 (edited 01-04-2001).]

12,000 for a rebuild??? YOu can buy a another 911 for 12K....I bought my 83 with 75K miles, mint condition, for 16,500....It's a SC CAB but the top needed a little work. Other than that, everything worked....

Bought the car in March at 75K, not in Jan, it has 93K miles on it and still going strong.

It had a minor transmission rod seal leak. Brought it to one of those so-called indep. repair shops....paid 280 bucks to have it fixed...

2 days later, same leak. I brought the car back, he installed a second seal.....2 days later after that, leak AGAIN....I called him on the phone inquiries about suggestions...he told me the rod may be worn and turning it down could fix it potentially damaging the seal...said the engine/tranny needed to be removed, total 1300 dollars...

In the meantime, I went to a Porsche dealer to get a second opinion....They replaced the seal a THIRD time but apparently they did it right. At $90/hr, they charged me 1 hour of labor plus the cost of the seal, total came to a little of 110 dollars.....

I asked for my money back from the other repaid shop. I got my 280 back after all that hassle...

Bottom line is: Be Careful....they see you with a Porsche and think you have money lying around.

ALWAYS get a few opinions and ALWAYS do your own research: Knowledge is Power!

and these BBS are great for advice.


83 SC
saving for a 930 this summer.

As a point of reference, having a 3.6 liter engine installed in a 1973 tub cost me $1500 in labor, and that was within a stone's throw of Beverly Hills -- not exactly an area known for cheap labor rates. Your swap, if you should choose to do it, is a much more straightforward affair.

But there doesn't seem to be a compelling reason to swap engines at all. If I remember correctly, losing a full liter (1.06 quarts) of oil over 500 kilometers (310 miles) of driving is considered within spec for these engines. You seem well within that spec.

I'd suggest that you talk to some members of your local PCA or POC chapter, and get some recommendations of reputable mechanics in your area. The guy you're dealing with smells money in the air, I think, and it's affecting his ability to do his job fairly.

(As a side note, the seller of that 3.2 liter engine appears to be the same guy I bought my 3.6 from. He has some mixed feedback on eBay, but my transaction with him was uneventful.)

------------------
Jack Olsen
1973 911 T (3.6) sunroof coupe

[This message has been edited by JackOlsen (edited 01-04-2001).]

Well again, I agree with Jack in that your oil loss is actually very normal, Magilla. Is that Magilla Gorilla? (an old cartoon...I'm not insulting you)

anyway, you have said nothing to give me any concern about your engine or car. While I usually don't care for hearing people being criticized, the stong words offered abovbe may be more than justified. Here, we may have an instance where someone wants to remove a perfectly healthy (donwright fresh if its a 3 liter under 100k miles) engine, sell it for $3 or $4k, charge you $12k for a motor he acquired for $?, charge you a week's labor for a half day's work. $15k is good money for one day's work!

You need another mechanic, even if you have to wait. Those busy guys can still give your car a physical without waiting 2 months I imagine. I suspect your car is just fine. As long as those head studs are okay, put gas and oil in it, and enjoy driving it.

------------------
'83 SC