2.7 engine problem
 

Hi
Today i received my first 911! my question may seem strange, but even so...i bought this 89000 miles car in the us, and picked it up a month later in Israel. in the us the car ran more then fine whith oil pressure of 20-30lbs uppon startin and ideling. now that i started it it has almost 0 pressure upoon idelin and 20 at 2000rpm. on top of that it spills huge amounts of oil through the air filter (yes, that bad...) when the oil thermostat opens. funny, but it start with a touch and revs great. between being fine and becoming a junk, the car was only on the ship!...it didnt run. yes, it seems obvious that the engine is dead big time, but i cant figure out how a pretty good engine dies like this! never happened to me before. if any suggestion, i will LOVE to hear them.
Thanks
Eitan

Eitan,

It sounds like the oil is over full. Did you or someone from the shipping company check the oil and fill it up? The oil should only be checked with the car running, the oil at operating temperature, and the car on a level surface. If you check the oil with the car shut off, or the oil cold, the level will read low. I think you may want to drain a few quarts of oil out, bring it up to temperature, then check it.

Good luck - and post us some pictures of a 911 in Israel.

ezl,

Before you panic, follow Rex's advice. Could be that car was over filled, or possibly car was tipped during shipping, dumping oil into the cylinders. As far as the oil pressure goes, the numbers you give don't seem out of spec for a warm engine. Mine often appears to show "0" at idle (after running at temp), and tends to show 10lbs. per 1K rpm. when running. I doubt something major happened in transit if the engine was good before shipping. Try draining all oil (from sump and tank), replace oil filter and refill to proper amount--try 20-50 wt. (it's ok to under fill as it's a dry sump system.) If the car runs fine but oil pressure seems low, check the sender also.

Thank you so much! both of you...never heard of a car you need to chack the oil level when warm...but it seems i got a lot to learn. i will try out your advise, but still, some more question. even if the it is overfill, it seems strange that it will spill it through the breather and to the air filter. this normaly indicates badly worn cylinders or rings. also, is it somehow possible in these engines that if some oil passages are badly blocked this will happen? if so, will an engine flush help??
thanks again
eitan
p.s. i will love to send pics, just need to solve this on first...
also, do you know the correct amount of oil in kg? maybe i have a wrong stick...

ezl,

I wouldn't flush it. Just change the oil and fill with about 10 quarts, then check it when the engine is warm and running. See these:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=336997&highlight=oil+ch ange

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=335509&highlight=oil+ch ange

Check it warm and running.

ezl,

+1, don't flush engine. Your symptoms are consistent with overfill or possibly oil sloshing into the breather tube during transport. On these cars too much oil winds up getting sucked into the intake through the tank breather hose and will come out through the air cleaner. Do the simple corrections first as stated above.
Just our of curiosity, what does the dip stick show when cold and not running? This could be a telling indicator.

ezl, If I were a betting man, I'd bet big money that the oil was simply overfilled. It is probably the most common mistake new owners make and results in huge plumes of smoke, which of course stops the heart of the new buyer when he sees this.

Drain all of the oil. All of it. There are two drain plugs - one on the underside of the engine, and one on the bottom of the oil tank. Get a big pan because you'll drain at least 10 (maybe more) quarts out of the engine and tank. Then refill with about 9 quarts. Start the car, let it warm up by driving it for about ten minutes, then check the oil level while the engine is running (when you pull the oil cap off, the engine will stumble slightly. This is normal). You'll likely need to add a quart or two more at that point. Add only enough oil to bring the level at the dipstick to the middle of the range, between high and low. Don't go higher than that.

Then go out and enjoy your car and consider this your first lesson in the unique experience of 911 ownership.

Thank you so much!
all of you who were kind enough to help with your response, and it did help. big time! bought this one on e bay, didnt see it at all and transfered the guy all the money at once. infect, i never drove a 911, never even set in one...just wanted one. then i bought this, all the way from Arizona to Israel.

They say this one has caracter. well, according to what happened to me in the first 3 days with it i hope she comes down, because caracter is great, but you have to live with her! start a relationship...ther was this oil thing (what other car in the world chakes oil when it warm??!!!) and i managed to ignite the thing. twice. i understand that you have to carry something to put out fire with you at all time, this thing is in constant danger of fire...now i know why i see so many burned ones on e bay...

O.k, so the engine overfill is solved thank god, so now i have some more questions.

first, a real stupid one: Can anyone tell me what fuel to use?? unleaded or leaded? or either?

Second: the engine runs fantastic now. it is clean underneath and start with a touch, and response is great. it is a 89000 miles engine and it sat for a long time when is was maybe started here or there, but not realy in use. it doesnt smoke at all. still, it has a low oil pressure ( when warm between 0 at ideal to 10 at running) and it blowes pretty much through the breather. I would assume it is the first time it ran proprly in about 2 years, so i assume it has to shed of some rust...the question is: is it worth wile using k44 or other aditive to the oil to help the rings work properly again? do i need 1 or 2 for this huge amount of oil? or sjould i just run it without pressing it for a while to let it find its own way?...

Tomorrow i will have it registered with ministery of transport. all this happened before i drove 10 meters...i'm falling in love...

Thanks again
Eitan

Eitan,

Great job fixing the oil problem - you sound like a genuine car enthusiast. You will love the Porsche.

All your questions are important - ask us anything. We're all here to learn from each other. But first, tell us a little about your car. What year? Any modifications or stock? This is important to get the best answers to your questions.

Eitan,

Ditto to Rex's reply. As far as fuel, if your car has catalytic converters, leaded fuel will kill them. Don't know the pollution laws where you are, but if you can remove the reactors/catalytic converters do so--the added heat are killers on the 2.7 mag cases. More information about your car will help greatly as subtle differences are found on the mid-year cars (ie. the reactors).
Your oil pressure could be an issue, but you did say the pressure was good before shipment. Still, the numbers you give (10lbs at running) are not clear, it really depends on your rpms. 10# would be low at 4k rpm. My advice, find a knowledgable porsche mechanic and have the valves adjusted, fuel injection set to specs. and check the oil pressure--it still could be the sender. Overall, 89K on the engine is not a lot if it has been cared for. I'm certainly no expert but others will add to this thread who know about the low pressure/blow-by issue.
Sounds like your'e in for the duration. Welcome and ask away. The help on this board is without limits.

Thanks again for being so willing to help...

As to the oil pressure, i realised that drivin it in minus degrees 16 celsius for a few minutes can not give me any proper reading...it should be more proper now in Tel aviv climate...

As for the model it is a 1977 car that lived all its life in Arizona (great body!) and is stock. even the air pump is there.

As for the mecanic...this is a problem. porsche were never imported here until 3 years ago, and they are realy rare. no much knowladge on how to handel them. i should learn from the guys who know, and they are overseas...such as you guys. if any recomendation on a realy good book, please let me know. i am hasitating to use haynes as in my 1971 merc, the haynes book led me to a realy serious mistake. is it possible to find the fectory workshop manual anywere?

Thanks
Eitan

I would suggest you spend some money on some literature:

1. The bentley SC manual - 77's and SCs are nearly identical except for the engine displacement, the exhaust and a few other details.

2. Wayne's 101 Projects book - he owns Pelican Parts incase you didn't know.

3. Waynes engine rebuilding book 0 thewre is good general information in here too.

I was in a similar boat to you, I bought my forst 911 sight unseen and then traveled 3500 kms to go get it. I had never sat in one or driven one either at that point. I did have a 944 at the time tho. Now I have 2.5 911's and can do anything on them - I just finished a complete tune up on my 964 (not as simiple as on a '77).

As was mentioned above, if you can and it hasn't already been done, back date your exhaust with with 74 or older heat exchgangers or SSI's. Also, install carerra chain tensioners (if you don't already have an oil line running into your chain cases).

Eithan: Regarding your oil pressure. The figures you talk of seeing the US are normal for a 2.7 engine that is not fully warmed up.

The low pressures your are now seeing in a hotter climate are not out of line with an engine fully warm. On a 2.4 and 2.7 it is not unusual to see zero at idle and then you should have at least 10 lbs per 1,000 RPM. Zero at idle seems scary, but many do it with no ill effects....

I own a 1976 California spec 911S - very similar to your 1977.
These cars never had a catalytic converter nor an oxygen sensor so leaded fuel will not be an issue for these type of components as you don't have them. However leaded fuel fouls spark plugs more readily and since the car was designed to use unleaded fuel I would recommend you run the highest octane unleaded fuel you can find. The cars did have thermal reactors which tended to cook the bottom of the engines resulting in leaking oil return tubes and very short valve guide life - if your car came from Arizona I suspect the thermal reactors have been removed.

A couple of other suggestions:

Never run the car without the engine cooling fan working; if you lose the fan belt pull over immediately and turn off the engine. An alternator light and the brake light coming on are indications of alternator failure/belt loss.

Do not disconnect the battery with the engine running - this can damage the alternator.

Do not reset (do not push the button) the trip mileage (trip distance) odometer while the car is moving - sometimes this loosens a a small plastic gear on a shaft and the trip odometer will stop working.

Do not speed shift the transmission; shift deliberately with a slight pause as you pass through the gears.

Jim has offered some great ideas--some things many of us have taken for granted but to one who hasn't had P-car experience are not obvious. Let me add a couple: Look in the airbox and see if your car has the pop-off valve. If not, put it on your list to add as a backfire which can be common on start up if valves are not adjusted correctly can destroy your airbox.
Also, see if your car has the updated carrera pressure fed tensioners. This is another upgrade (not completely essential) that will give you some peace of mind.
Ask any and all questions. There is someone here who can solve most any problems or concerns

Jim - Thermal Reactors are Catalytic Converters. Leaded fuel will foul them up unless they were hollowed out.

"Thermal Reactors are Catalytic Converters."

Nope:

I have my original units and they are merely insulated chambers for afterburning.

Owner's manual specifies 91 RON octane low lead or unleaded fuel.

Thermal reactor:
A high-volume thermally isolated chamber replacing the exhaust manifold and providing a place for high-temperature afterburning of exhaust pollutants. Found on all Mazda rotary engines and some piston engines (BMW for example) as well.

Catalytic converter:
A pollution-control device found on the exhaust system of most cars since its introduction in 1974 which acts like an afterburner to reburn unburned gas in the tail pipe. It looks like a small muffler and is usually made of stainless steel. It contains platinum, rhodium, or palladium which is a catalyst for the chemical reaction needed to burn off any unburned hydrocarbons and carbon monoxide by turning them into water vapor, carbon dioxide and other less toxic gases.

Decal found on 1977 911:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1176682677.jpg

O.k. so now you got me realy confused...
What i see in my car is pipes which look like any other exhaust manifuld, then those big things under the valve covers, which i beleive are there in order to burn my car when some oil spils on them, what a clever idea. but still i thought those are the heat exchangers. they have pipes coming up for this purpose. then there is the muffler itself. no catalitic or thermal thing as far as i could see. all i see is the air pump. so, i put 96 leaded fuel in it because a car that is not designed to use unleaded can be damaged, all this despite unleaded sims to be better quality, and cheaper...so what have i missed??

Eitan,

Here are some part numbers from Pelican Parts that show the exhaust manifolds. The Thermo Reactors look like these:
911-211-028-00-OEM
You don't want the Thermo Reactors. You want the exhaust to be back dated to 1974 or before, and look like these:
911-211-022-10-M350

Sorry I could not find pictures quickly, but if you search the parts catalog, you will see the pictures.

In my car, I always run the highest octane unleaded that I can find. Re-read the post from Jim Sims - very good advice. Your car is designed for unleaded, and that will keep the inside of your engine cleaner.

What kind of gasoline is available in Israel? What kind of cars do most people drive? How are the roads - boring and straight or winding, twisty, and fun?

Eitan,

Welcome to the Pelican Parts community! One of the informal rules is that you have to post a picture of your car. We love to see another guys Porsche.

On this site, you will find all the information you need to keep your Porsche running and happy. There was a thread recently called 101 things I learned about my Porsche (or something like that). It was a great piece about those little things like checking the oil when at operating temperature with the engine running. It also mentioned the bit about not resetting the odometer trip. There must be 99 other things that you should know, without finding out the hard way.

We wish you much good luck with your car!

Your car, if it is a US 1977 in original configuration (compression ratio unchanged, etc.) is designed to run on low lead or unleaded fuel: 91 Octane (RON). Did you get an owners manual with the car? If so, read what it lists about fuel requirements.

Follow Jim's advice--unleaded is better overall and your engine was designed for it's use.
Looks like you lucked out and the thermal reactors were removed. They are very easy to spot and would be toward the center of the engine from the heat exchangers. These were the biggest source of problems for the 2.7 due to the heat. If they're already gone, there's no pressing need to back date to a 74 system, though it seems to be a more free-flowing set up. Get the books, browse the boards, and ask often.

Hi again

was far away from my computer, but had some time to drive around a bit so, now i have some more questions...

after tuning injection, looking into all the loose vacumes, tuning the ignition, and removing the air pump, the car drives like a rocket! temp. is a bit better, and i see that when the temp. is better, so is the oil preasure. not by much, but there is a change.

When i thought the engine is dead i put in the cheapest semi synthetic oil, just to see what will happen. no point in puttin expensive oil in an engine that goes in the bin...but now thing are better, and after i saw how different the oil preasure is between cold and warm, i remembered what i put in...

Israel is a very warm country, so i figure 20 /50 oil is a must, better using the good brands used for diesel engines. since the car had obviously stood for quite some time, i want to use an additive and maybe also flush the engine. any comments? do you thing this will make the proper change? what to look for in oil, additive, and flush?

Also, after the advice that i got, i looked and saw that my car doesnt have reactors. oddly enough it uses heat exchangors that look like the ones used for the reactors, i.e, headers being 3 that turn into one pipe going into the heat exchangors, not 3 enterances. also i see that the exhaust has a small pipe that has been cut out. i dont know if this is the original unit anyway. what looks to me is that the reactors were removed and strange 3-1 headers were installed or specialy built. anybody knows this kind of configuration??

Walter, you asked about motoring life in Israel, well this is complicated...as a start i had to pay 130% tax on exporting...also there are about 30 911's here and two shops that MAY know something about them. no parts. people drive japanaise as they, truly hold forever. rosds are not perfect but there are many many twisting, very scary road. if you know your stuff you can have a great driving time. finaly, as in the U.s, there are those policemen...

finaly, the dummest question you ever heard: how, in gods name, do you attach a picture?!...
Eitan
P.s. what is an Ossi blue???

The three to one headers were and are (they're still available) a common replacement when removing the thermal reactors in the mid-year 911 cars. It is a quick, relatively inexpensive solution. However it still leaves the engine with a convoluted, less efficient exhaust system. The next step is to install a 1974 or earlier set of heater boxes (shrouded headers) or aftermarket versions such as those made by SSI of California. These "backdated headers" improved the exhaust flow, typically resulting in improved performance (5 to 10 horsepower were regained). This last change is expensive, costing around US$1000 and there is a risk of breaking the exhaust studs resulting in further expensive repairs. The small, severed pipe is likely a portion of the exhaust gas recirculation system (EGR) that was removed. Also, when you removed the air pump did you note if it's output lead to a U-shaped distribution manifold (small pipe) that went to air injectors installed in the heads? These can also be removed and the ports plugged, although leaving them in place will likely do not harm other than possibly plug up the air injectors themselves which won't matter.

If you're using petroleum oils (versus synthetic) in Israel I would definitely suggest using 20W50. Rather than a flush I would suggest you just change the oil more often than usual for a couple of cycles: drive for 1500 Km/six weeks on the first change, then 2500 Km/eight weeks on the second, then go to a normal oil change cycle. The only additive I would consider is one that supplements the zinc and phosphorous content if the locally available oils are not adequate in this regard.

Use the blue "Click here to Upload a Photo.." link to upload an image.

I have attached four links that show the removal of the 3-1 headers off my '76 and the installation of SSI's.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/151353-ssis-onto-76s-step-1-a.html?highlight=SSIs

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/152148-ssis-onto-76s-step-2-a.html?highlight=SSIs

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/153506-ssis-onto-76s-step-3-a.html?highlight=SSIs

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/154629-ssis-onto-76s-finish.html?highlight=SSIs