“911s oversteer” – Nonsense! (LONG)

[Ho Hum 74]

Apologies for the length, but allow me to ramble...

I thought I’d give a quick commentary on this topic and describe what I have experienced in the transition from tracking my BMW M3 to the 911.

Last weekend I was at Road America with the Badger Bimmers. They’re a fun group with a membership base that’s largely Wisconsin based but gets much attention from Chicago and surrounding areas. They allow all types of cars at their events. It’s not often that you get to run with a $750k Ferrari 333SP ALMS car in your group. He let me pass him on the warm up and I nearly wiped out at 5 just from the grin on my face when he came screaming past my little ’74 911 a few laps later. If you’re an auto enthusiast you can’t help get excited by a Ferrari. Especially one that can do 220 mph!

The one great thing about the North American BMW club is that part of their insurance requirement is to have instructional classes for their students. While some classroom instructors don’t really add that much value to an experienced driver, we had a real gem this time. His name: “Duck” Waddle. Duck’s been driving at Road America since 1958 and is a class act. His instruction is interspersed with a dry humor that has everyone cracking the usually dull façade that a group of overly competitive advanced students bring to the table. Duck has seen every type of student and every type of car at RA and his facts, thoughts and opinions were real gems. Like when he asked the group, “Where is the turn in point for 6?”. After a few hesitant, “Just after the bridge” or “somewhere near the turn in cone” responses Duck says, “It’s 17 feet past the bridge”. We all crack up, by he’s right. Then someone gets brave enough to ask, “Well how do you know that?”. “Easy” says Duck, “because at 18 feet my track out revs are lower than at 17”. End of debate!

While Duck had us thinking about every part of the track he started talking about Porsches, primarily because there were so many in our group and we were passing the majority of the class. As well as a number of questions from other drivers that hit on the mystique of these marvelous car, like, “why was that 911 in second gear in turn 5?” In the 911 department there was a 3.2 Carrera, my ’74 Euro Carrera, 993 Cup, GT3, GT3 Cup and a 996 Supercup. It didn’t take a brain surgeon to work out what the pecking order was!

Soon Duck thinks he’s got this class of Neanderthals pegged. He asks a loaded question, “Do Porsches oversteer or understeer?” I couldn’t help myself from showing him that us Porsche drivers are actually pretty in touch with our cars and remarked loudly, “They understeer”. Shock and horrors! I could almost hear the gasps from the class now. They were thinking: “I didn’t want to get a 911 because they have wicked, uncontrollable oversteer and I’m not sure I want to spend my DE time spinning off the track and embarrassing myself in front of my Bimmer buddies”. Duck pauses for effect and then, with finger pointing straight at me firmly states, “That’s right! They understeer.”

To me this was old news. I had worked this out almost the minute I took my 911 on the track but I knew that the myth was out there. Since I experienced the amount of understeer our cars have to offer I started to pick up the pace and really push the car harder and harder and harder through the corners. Soon my 30 year old 911 was smashing my previous best times by 7 seconds at Grattan, 4 at Gingerman and what feels like teens at RA. To get rid of the inherent understeer in some corners I now trail the brakes deep into the corner and all of a sudden that 911 turns in like a front engined car.

Well now that Duck brought it up again, I thought I’d comment on this myth for all the sheep that are new to the 911 flock because it is a wicked and terrible lie.

This year I had my first student at Gingerman raceway. G’man is a great track for experimenting because it is so safe. My student was new to 911s and to performance driving. He had a 911 SC which felt pretty strong and soon we were discussing the merits of 911s and how they handle. While we were out on the track he mentions to me that he’s afraid of spinning the 911 because he’s heard so much about how they exhibit uncontrollable oversteer and you need to be really careful about tossing them about. This is a subject that gets me talking because I had such an epiphany while transitioning from my M3 to my current 911. I found that, other than lifting (which is controllable), 911s only oversteer when you provoke them – i.e. get them off balance with rough and snappy inputs. I mention this to him and I can see he’s not buying it. “This guy is crazy” he’s thinking. So after a few laps of missing apexes and then getting some, I tell him that the great thing about 911s is that you can clean up a tardy turn in with your right foot. “What do you mean?” “Well, if you see you’re about to miss an apex, you look at your apex, lift off the gas, the car rotates and as soon as it’s pointed in the right direction just get on the gas again, she hooks up and you’re outta there. It’s that simple.”

He’s still not buying it, so we go into turn 2 which is a long uphill double or single apex corner – depending how you wish take it. He’s at a slow enough speed where we can experiment a bit and he’s demonstrated the ability to catch a rotation. He turns in late and is wide of the apex. I shout, “LIFT!” He obliges, the rear end does too and as soon as it’s pointed towards the apex I shout, “Get on it!” He does, and we hit the apex and bullet out of the corner. Well the response from him was one of shock and awe – to steal a phrase. Brimming with excitement he says, “WOW! I could have stayed out here a million years and never learned that. That’s so cool!”

So now I have a first time student who’s throttle steering his way around turn 2 at Gingerman. I was happy. Another convert.

Which brings me to why I believe the 911 is such an awesome track car. I keep telling my car buddies, each of which drive newer and more modern equipment, that I approach learning to drive fast like I approach my golf game. When I was focused on being a single digit, I wanted to learn how to shape my shots left and right, hit high shots, knock downs and back-spin. I wanted a club that would tell me when I made a perfect swing and one that responded less than favorably when I did not. Yes, you golfers out there guessed it: I have a set of Hogan blades. Older 911s are just the same: no PSM, no ABS, no power steering or brakes. Just pure driving at its best. You know when you do good and you know when you do bad. Simple. End of story. And like a blade, in the right hands, a 911 can do just about anything. What can be more rewarding than that? I can’t see myself driving anything else. Which brings me back to my M3. The M3 turns in like a knife. Once you are committed there’s little one can do to change direction without significantly backing out of the power, adding steering input and waiting for the front end to drag you towards the apex. Don’t get me wrong, they’re great cars, but I prefer my forged blade and a nice balata! See you in the sweet-spot.

Tristan

[concentric]

Great read, thanks.
Long live the '74.

JCM

[addictionMS]

one clarification, stock 911 understeer, with adjustable sway bars you can have it any way you like...

fun read

Jim

[Grady Clay]

Tristan,

Wonderful account and I agree 100%.

I’m sure Duck was one of my SCCA MidDiv instructors in the ‘60s.

I taught the same as you. Here in the Rockies it got to be known as the “Grady Clay School of Sideways Driving” not from sliding but the rotation technique.

Best,
Grady

[RSBob]

Great Post! Thank you for being long winded. You can expound any time.

[CarreraS2]

Isn't the "911 Oversteer" issue really this situation:

Joe Drivinggloves takes his 911 out onto the highway.

Going onto the curving on-ramp, he's feelin' racy, but then realizes he's coming into the turn a little too hot.

So, natch, he lifts off the gas to slow down.

And goes off the road backwards, heavy end first, like a dart.

[nostatic]

great analogy with the golf clubs.

[SLO-BOB]

I'm sure not going to disagree with you as it is clear you have waaay more experience on the track than I. I'm a Badger Bimmer member as well as PCA member too. I haven't made it to the schools, but that will be remedied next summer after I sort my 911 out a bit. Funny how many of the B.B. members bring their Porsche's to the BMWCCA events.

I wanted to say, however, that one of the most pronounced differences between my 77 911 and every BMW (no M3 yet-my loss) I've ever owned or driven, is the ease with which the 911 points. Of course I'm talking about street here. My experiences with BMWs have been that trailing throttle oversteer is damn near essential unless signifigant mods have been made to the suspension. I always felt as if the BMW plows heavily into each turn. With my stock 911, I simply point and shoot. The front end turns right in and the tail comes around nicely with acceleration. (I've never tried lifting-sounds very scary.) Wouldn't that be considered oversteer? Whatever it is-I really love it.

Again-not contradicting you-you clearly know of what you speak. Just wondering how my experiences fit in with your explaination?

[LARRY SHARP]

Great read but shhhhhh dont let it out that 911s are controlable well have everyone trying to drive one

[Grady Clay]

Brian,

I absolutely agree. This is the classic novice 911 driver mistake. This is even more serious when a Turbo comes to full boost not anticipated by the driver. This is why every 911 owner should attend several (many) DE events.

When coming into a corner, on-ramp, or other situation too fast, it is important to be able to allow the 911 to rotate slightly and “scruff off speed” while still maintaining control. This is not a driving technique most practice on the street.

Best,
Grady

[WhyDoIBother]

Still the 911 is really an expert's car. All cars take experience to fully appreciate their virtues, but this is true most of all with the rear engined Porsches (I'll throw the 356 in too). In the right hands the turning quirks can really be made into almost unnatural advantages. Just have to learn it and learn it well. It's well worth the time as Tristan showed.

[Zeke]

That is very well written. No apologies necessary for a long post. Keep 'em coming!

[Ed Bighi]

I like that question asking if a 911 oversteers or understeers. If I were asked that question, my answer would be that a 911 does either quite well whenever I need one or the other. The way I look at it, the 911 is the only car (other than a go-kart) that can do anything I ask of it. It will plant the rear end hard on the exit. It will rotate the rear end 180 degrees around when I need to get between another car and the apex on a hairpin. But most of all, it's rear end will instantly respond to whatever my throtle asks of it. Sure, it's a high effort, high gain car that isn't dumbed down for the masses. But so was the Lotus 49.

On the subject of high effort, high gain cars, and 911's in general, Hans Stuck always comes to my mind. Even though he has mostly been a BMW man like Dieter Quester and Marc Surer, he did spend some time in Audis and 911's. But in my mind, it has always been the 911 that best showcased his talent. I have seen him do things in a 964 turbo LM GT, in the rain, that just about nobody else could have done. This by making comparisons between what he did in those cars against what others did in the same cars. By comparison, when in an Audi or BMW, or even a 962, his talent seems diluted somewhat. Of course, this is all relative since he is still "the" master in any vehicle. But always much more so when he is behind the wheel of a 911. In a 911, he was always a whole world away from his co-drivers. Especially in a turbocharged one.

I like a car that showcases talent. In fact, watching Stuck drive the piss out of the Brumos 964 turbo in one particular race is what sealed the deal in my lifelong appreciation of the 911. That exact day, I stopped looking at any other car and saw only the 911. I haven't changed. Seeing those distinctive round lights being driven by that blue helmet with stars, just a little sideways in every turn while pulling away from the field, just amazed me. It looked like this was the tool for the job, conceived before I was born, but that made everything else in that field look like a toy. The very next day of watching that guy, I decided to go out and buy one.

[dd74]

Eddy, you're definitely the Philip Roth of Porsche ownership - that's a very well-worded description.

BTW: where've you been? I haven't seen you "on the board" lately. Or maybe it's because I've been stuck in OT hell, wasting keystrokes.

[Wil Ferch]

All very true.....
You can summarize by saying that 911's have low speed ( high steering angle) understeering tendencies...especially if you provoke power too soon...and get more neutral as speed and turn radius increases ( lower steering angle). Also that you need to differentiate power-on oversteer, with lift-throttle oversteer...a different animal.
Finally, that the oversteering characteristics of our cars is best defined during "terminal" conditions.....can't ignore the physics of weight in back.
---Wil

[djmcmath]

Any post that draws out Grady Clay, Ed Bighi, and Wil Ferch can't be all bad. Thanks for the writeup!

Dan

[Wil Ferch]

I'm honored to be mentioned in the same breath of such hallowed company.......

Wil

[sundaypunch]

Originally posted by WhyDoIBother
Still the 911 is really an expert's car. All cars take experience to fully appreciate their virtues, but this is true most of all with the rear engined Porsches (I'll throw the 356 in too). In the right hands the turning quirks can really be made into almost unnatural advantages. Just have to learn it and learn it well. It's well worth the time as Tristan showed.

This is a good point. Not much different than the Hogan blades mentioned in the story. It takes years of practice to be able to hit a blade consistently. The average person is much better off with a cavity back club. I also think the average driver can get into a lot of trouble with a 911 without the proper instruction and seat time.

[Ho Hum 74]

Thanks all for the kind comments. I'm trying to get some writing/musings published in our local PCA mag and then see where I can go from there....don't worry, I've still got my day job! (and the Hogans)

Feel free to e-mail or post topics for me to get cracking on. I need to build up a little portfolio.

Regards,

Tristan

[joey bagadonuts]

Very nice. As for suggestions, I think you have the makings of several right here:

- The Difference Between 17 and 18 Feet Over Four Miles
- Tail Happy: The 911 Myth
- Cornering a Rear-Engined Car
- 911 Handling Dynamics
- Purity of Feel
- Why a 911?

I think you could actually expand on all of these topics, e.g. You mentioned that you shaved quite a few seconds off your previous bests at several tracks. Where did you pick up the speed? What were you doing previously and what have you changed? That sort of thing.

Keep it up!