WikiPelican, Coming soon...

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts
This has been my main resistance to this. There's a lot of people who think they know stuff in the forums, but don't really quite know what they don't know...

-Wayne

the other day a real eager beaver new fellow asked a non-trivial question about his suspension. three people posted good advice. All similar. he said thanks and would make the fix. Just after that someone posted very bad advice, stuff that could cause ruined parts at best, an accident at worst. he said thanks, I guess I'll take your advice instead. I didn't check to see if anyone had tried to correct him or the bad post.

my point is that if this Wiki is an official Pelican reference, like your books, and people get bad advice from it and ruin their cars, it could become a real headache. put another way, would you knowingly allow bad information to be published in 101...? because that's what will happen on the Wiki unless real, qualified technical editors are constantly scanning additions, edits and updates.

[svandamme]

here's that previous thread where i explained the review and standardizing things

New PelicanParts forum suggestion

[lateapex911]

A Porsche Wiki, such as being discussed, is more controlled than most would think. The access can be controlled, and the editing can be at the discretion of moderators. A hierarchy of mods can be put in place to run the show.

Properly done, a Wiki would be a powerful tool. I've often used the search button, and, even found the answer, but it has been time consuming and frustrating.

[VaSteve]

Originally posted by Shaun 84 Targa
because that's what will happen on the Wiki unless real, qualified paid technical editors are constantly scanning additions, edits and updates.

Otherwise what's the point? All day long people give out bad or mediocre advice on this board. It's the reader's discretion whether to heed that advice. 99% of the readers here are hobbiest amateurs. The pros aren't paid either. We enjoy the community aspect of this board knowing it's a sales gimmick for Wayne's business and most of us give our time and talents and advice unreservedly. I don't think the wiki should change that. And I doubt that people will fill it full of crap information just for the hell of it.

However, if it needs to pass some technical "merit" test similar to 101 projects and Bentley (which IIRC have some errors) I don't see myself contributing and I'm sure many other will agree.

After all, the advice here is only as good as what you pay for it. If you don't believe the advice you find on the interweb you need to do your own research or farm the work out to an expert.

[Scott at Pelican Parts]

We're not thinking of this as a substitute for the forums (like the questions about whether my engine is running too hot or what type of suspension upgrade should I do), but rather a way to beef up the tech article section. How to do a discrete project, with tips and tricks for particular models. That kind of thing.

[DanL911sc]

As a newbie here with projects in my future, I have to say the forums are a great resource, and a wiki won't replace them. If the search function were faster and better (possibly run by Google?) it could solve most problems better than a wiki.

That said, a wiki is a better place for unchanging, well hashed, controversial, or basic subjects. It is also a better place to get good overviews of often discussed sujects.

What would the page the discusses the pros and cons of the 915 vs the G50 transmission look like? The forum posts on that subject cover almost too much ground and are packed with opinion and infighting. A wiki page, if gardened well, might give a better, more concise, and more neutral overview of the subject.

What about the page for mounting race seats? Of course it would immediately mention the dangers of welding next to the center tunnel, and it could have links to forum posts that describe success stories. It could be a huge time saver.

The page discussing various shifter mods would be good, but it could be susceptible to astroturfing from the various aftermarket shifter manufacturers.

It all comes down to promulgating good gardening practices, and good support from the wiki software.

[lateapex911]

it all comes down to submissions, and moderators/editors controlling the content.

[ischmitz]

....hm, let's see - so who should we ask to write the section about performanc chips.....

[island911]

It doesn't take much to have a section called "controversy."

Just have someone who doesn't have an interest in chips (hi-performance or otherwise) to write the section.

something like....

'Performance chipping has some concerned with exceeding factory specifications. Those concerns are specifically; exceeding timing and fuel map specifications, leading to detonation and/or high hydrocarbon emissions, and/or over reving leading to snappage of the pasta-like rod-bolts, subsequent sobbing, and the harsh realization that the Carrera owner should have bought an SC.'

See? Easy.

[jester911]

I have found in wiki type sites for the most part people really don't
post info on a subject they aren't pretty knowledgeable on. I sure won't myself.

Not only that but it usually is corrected pretty quickly. I think most savvy people have really gotten to the point that they don't take everything they read on the internet as gospel. I know when I use this forum for info I am usually using it in conjunction with Bentley or some other source as well.

The folks that try to do projects they don't know much about without doing due diligence to gather enough proper info really can only blame themselves IMHO.

[frankc]

As others have said, a wiki would be a great medium for accessing those common topics that seem to keep coming up over and over again. Ones that don't require interactive discussion in pseudo real-time, but rather a methodical/thorough description of the topic.

The forums are definitely still needed for posting questions (perhaps on wiki topics) that the community can respond to (and update the wiki if necessary), or just to log the progress of a project they are working on that may others may find useful.

Frank

[Joeaksa]

Originally posted by ischmitz
....hm, let's see - so who should we ask to write the section about performanc chips.....

For some reason no one wants to raise to your comments!! How about someone who knows what they are doing?

This could be a very good asset and nice addition to the tech articles.

[mhackney]

Allow me a moment to get on a Soap Box...

For the past 11 years I have researched, started several companies and built software products to promote capturing and sharing of "information" and "experts". I have researched and implemented bulletin boards, discussion forums, instant messaging, live collaboration, and now, blogs and wikis. Each of these has its strengths and weaknesses and not one is appropriate for all situations.

Forums are a perfectly reasonable solution for discussion types of interactions but are not good at capturing "collective wisdom". Information can be gleaned from a discussion forum to improve content in a wiki.

Collective wisdom does not have to be "professionally" edited and moderated to make it useful and accurate. The community self moderates and contributes. Take a look at wikipedia - completely open, completely community moderated. Is there the occasional inaccuracy? Sure. Does an occasional spammer contribute garbage? Not very often. And wikipedia is huge - both in terms of #s of users and in terms of pages of content.

Wikis work because 1) communities are very effective at self policing and promoting the good (information) and removing the bad (information), 2) the content can evolve as new insight develops or refinements made - discussion forums are awful at this since you typically end up with multiple discussion threads that are frequently redundant and not connected, 3) the software is so easy to use that there are very low barriers for anyone to contribute. See a spelling mistake or have some clarifications to a procedure? Edit the wiki to include it - you are now a contributor. 4) finding information is much simpler. Wikis use a naming convention for pages - so if you want info on MFI, you browse to www.wikipelican.com/mfi and there you are. And of course there is search and 5) wiki history can be retrieved. On most wiki products, each and every edit is versioned and can be retrieved. So the problem of someone coming in and trashing the wiki is lessened. Believe it or not, there are 1000s of completely open wikis with very large incohesive user populations that simply do not have this problem. With cohesive user populations like ours (all Porsche fanatics/lovers) the "problem" is even less likely to occur. Offensive users can be barred access as a final step.

So, my advice - and take it for what it is worth (!) - would be to leave the forums in place, add the wikipelican to augment the technical articles (which in and of themselves should probably be wiki-ized) and keep the wiki completely open as a "grand experiment". It would be a good idea to require user registration in order to contribute but all users/guests can view content (just like the forums). Wayne can always terminate or add layers or enforcement if this community - for some reason - deviates from how communities normally interact. I have confidence that it will work, better information will be captured and made much more accessible, and the community will greatly benefit overall.

Off Soap Box

Finally, expert "blogs" might be another interesting addition for this community. Not all experts like to blog but if any do, it can be a very effective way of sharing information.

Thanks for reading and especially for sharing your collective knowledge with me and my 2 Porsches!

Cheers,
Michael

[Wayne 962]

Thanks everyone for your comments. My input:

- The Wiki stuff will be designed to suplement the tech articles - not really replace anything on the forums. People have suggested creating forum FAQs to capture useful information, this will allow us to do that.

- I will have editors to make sure the information is correct. I suspect that I will be doing at least some of the editing.

- It's good that we'll have information that can be added to and altered. When I write a tech article, I cannot simply know 100% of what is out there when writing. Some people will later email me, and let me know that the 12mm bolt I referenced in the tech article is actually a 13mm on a 912E. Then, of course, I have to go look to find out if that bolt is acutally a 12mm, or does this fellow who emailed me have a car that was messed with by a previous owner.

- The tech articles are not "Wiki" because I want full 100% editorial control of them. There has to be some editing involved when the article bears Pelican's name.

- This Wiki stuff will not replace the forums at all, in fact it will make most people here more knowledgeable of their cars. Think of it as expanding the tech articles section using content gleaned from the forums. I suspect some of the first projects will be to troll the archives for content lost and comparmentalize it in the Wiki format.

Seems like a good idea to me, if properly implemented.

-Wayne

[Grady Clay]

Wayne,

I have been following this with interest.

Good for you! I think this is a valuable addition. I see this as allowing edited use of the Forum to make the Tech Articles more responsive.

The Forum contains an incredible resource of technical information and mostly very accurate. Having a system to coalesce that resource into a Tech Article format will allow a transition from someone searching the forums to having a single resource (with links).

One of the most important Wiki features are links. While a Wiki-Pelican article can have one or a few author/editors, every detail should be linked to an authorative source. At least that should be Pelican threads and more. Factory references (corrected) are best.

One of the best features of the Forum is it is “self correcting”. If I post something in error, my compatriots post a correction. I’m never offended. I don’t know everything. I can use the 'EDIT' function to correct my mistake. This is the ‘beauty’ of the Forum.

The goal is to find a way to continue this wonderful ‘edit’ function between the Forum and a possibly revised Tech- or Wiki- situation.

Wayne, I recommend we all carefully think this through before implementing anything. There are lots of possibilities. Just like the transition from internet “lists” to “forums”, some made the transition better (and more successfully) than others. Our efforts can set the standards.

I would suggest a gradual introduction from significant Forum threads to some sort of limited Wiki-based edited Tech Articles. If you were to pick ten subjects, you could find ten experts for each and 100 that can offer good input. Add that to what is already archived on the Forum and there is an incredible start.

How to do this?

Let’s start with one relatively simple subject. I’ll propose 911 axle CV joints. There is a significant resource on the Forum if you are expert at Search. As an experiment, why not use that to build an Wiki-Article edited by some flexible group?

I recommend every Wiki-Pelican Tech Article have a linked Forum Thread for public discussion, input and critique. This is the ‘feedback’ technique so necessary for ‘peer-review’.

If you look at Wikipedia, one of the most significant aspects are references and links. When writing or editing a Wiki-Pelican article, aside from factual correctness, the links to Pelican Forum (and other) sources are most important.

If we do a Wiki-Pelican with the same rigor of peer review that professional journals use (or used to), we can produce the definitive on-line Porsche source (as if Pelican isn’t already). The only question is to how to do it properly for the long-term.

Let’s talk this through in all the detail rather than starting an experiment that might not be ideal.

Best,
Grady

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally posted by Grady Clay

How to do this?

Let’s start with one relatively simple subject. I’ll propose 911 axle CV joints. There is a significant resource on the Forum if you are expert at Search. As an experiment, why not use that to build an Wiki-Article edited by some flexible group?

I second starting with axles, but only because I have 4 sets of 4-bolt+2-pin early axles and have no idea which ones will/should fit my 69E and which ones are better: the super thick, heavy CV joint ones or the thinner, seemingly lighter joint ones.

[Grady Clay]

Shawn,

I was proposing this as only one of possibly hundreds of initial subjects.

Your question is possibly better addressed on the Forum. With a Search, there is already a lot.

The goal here is to turn that Forum information into a cohesive article that can possibly answer your question. If not, there are then links to threads on the same or similar subjects. This allows anyone to ‘revive’ an appropriate dormant thread to continue discussion on a particular subject.

With a Wiki-Pelican Tech Article, all of the relevant information can be edited, peer reviewed and linked to original sources. Only a few Forum Threads currently do that. It is also time consuming to produce a proper Search result.

We are basically talking about a ‘Search Result’ that turns into a permanent Wiki-Tech Article yet is still editable and has peer review.

IMHO, this issue is how to take the collective knowledge and questions from a diverse group and turn that into useable and easily accessible information. The Technical Forum is the ‘soil’ from which something might grow. The Tech Article is the final (but ‘live’) result. The ‘feedback’ forum is the correcting feature.

I think there are several significant features:
The original input should be open, errors, BS and all. The Forum peer influence makes the system self-correcting if you look close enough.

The editors of a Tech Article are only so knowledgeable. To keep the Article accurate, complete and even well written requires the feedback from an open (linked) forum.

There are also situations where there are legitimate conflicting opinions. That situation should be presented and then discussed/argued on a public forum. The Tech Article editor(s) then must become moderator(s). Wayne should have the last say.

Wayne, why not start with a 101 subject and all the Forum references? This could make an enhanced Tech Article, ready for a 2nd Ed.

There is a lot more to this. I am absolutely not an expert at these IT issues.

Best,
Grady

[RSBob]

Everyone knows the very first subject to be Wikized (in alpha order) is the Cool Collar. Once we get that one decided and squared away, the rest will be a piece of cake.

P.S. I think the entire concept is great and welcome it.

[MBAtarga]

I suggest the first wiki entry be: Rebuilding your 915 transmission
Is anyone out there listening?