1968 SWB Turn signal/park lamp operation

[Fritter]

Hi all,

I recently ran the "missing" license light wires (in correct brown and grey colors) in my '68 911. License lights now work great.

But....

Now when I turn the ignition key on and hit the turn signal either left or right, the corresponding left or right front and back parking lights come on also.

Is this normal?

I checked and the "euro" parking light feature where you have the ignition on, hit the signal switch right or left, and turn the ignition off and that side's parking lights stay on does not work on my '68.

Thanks,
Mike Fritz

[304065]

Mike, check very carefully the wires on the back of the ignition switch. What color is the stalk on your turn signal switch, pitted chrome or black?

[Fritter]

Originally Posted by john_cramer

Mike, check very carefully the wires on the back of the ignition switch. What color is the stalk on your turn signal switch, pitted chrome or black?

John, the turn signal switch is black. I will check out the wires on the back of the ignition switch, although I did not change anything there.

UPDATE: My ignition switch has these wires:

Term 54 - thick red wire to HL switch
Term 30 - thin grey wire to turn signal switch, thin yellow wire to radio
Term 15 - thin red wire to turn signal switch, thick red wire to fuse box
Term 50 - thin yellow wire to starter
Term P0 - empty

Ignition switch has these markings on it:
Made in W Germany, a K with a circle around it, 8276/2, 22715

I think all is hooked up OK.

[ossiblue]

Mike,

Did your Euro parking lights work before the wiring job? (Ignition off, turn indicator moved up or down, parking light on for corresponding side.)

What you describe sounds to me like a problem in the indicator switch. The parking lights should come on (corresponding side) when the ignition is off and the stalk is moved. The fact that the lights come on when the flashers work tells you they do get power. Do the parking lights come on with the light switch pulled out to the first stop? If they do, then, again, I would suspect the indicator switch. However, if all systems were good before your wiring job, then something else may be amiss--I'm no expert here, just offering suggestions. The license light should be wired to fuse #6, I believe. Possibly if you tapped into the parking light circuit it is causing some disruption. Just a thought.

Keep us updated.

[Fritter]

Originally Posted by ossiblue

Mike,
Did your Euro parking lights work before the wiring job? (Ignition off, turn indicator moved up or down, parking light on for corresponding side.)
What you describe sounds to me like a problem in the indicator switch. The parking lights should come on (corresponding side) when the ignition is off and the stalk is moved. The fact that the lights come on when the flashers work tells you they do get power. Do the parking lights come on with the light switch pulled out to the first stop? If they do, then, again, I would suspect the indicator switch. However, if all systems were good before your wiring job, then something else may be amiss--I'm no expert here, just offering suggestions. The license light should be wired to fuse #6, I believe. Possibly if you tapped into the parking light circuit it is causing some disruption. Just a thought.
Keep us updated.

I'm not sure if the Euro parking lights worked before with the ignition off. Are the parking lights on one side SUPPOSED to turn on when the turn signal is activated on that side? Yes, the parking lights come on when the headlight switch is pulled out to the first stop, all is normal there.

Yes the license lights are wired to fuse 6. All the wiring was there in my '68, I just had to wire the decklid portion and plug it into the loose wire on the left rear harness.

Thanks for the help.

[ossiblue]

Mike,

According to the diagram I checked, the turning lights are a different circuit (fuse 1) than the parking lights (fuses 7&8). If your turning flasher is working properly, then with the ignition on, the indicator switch (stalk) will cause the appropriate side blinker to work, but not the parking light.

Question: when you turn on the blinker (ignition on) what happens? Does the proper side blink? Does that same side's parking light come on and remain steady or does it blink too? Does the proper side blink and both sides of the car's parking lights come on? Just some things you might check for proper functioning. Seems to me if the parking lights are blinking, there may be some leakage of current, likely at the switch, or poor grounds somewhere.

[Fritter]

Originally Posted by ossiblue

Mike,
According to the diagram I checked, the turning lights are a different circuit (fuse 1) than the parking lights (fuses 7&8). If your turning flasher is working properly, then with the ignition on, the indicator switch (stalk) will cause the appropriate side blinker to work, but not the parking light.
Question: when you turn on the blinker (ignition on) what happens? Does the proper side blink? Does that same side's parking light come on and remain steady or does it blink too? Does the proper side blink and both sides of the car's parking lights come on? Just some things you might check for proper functioning. Seems to me if the parking lights are blinking, there may be some leakage of current, likely at the switch, or poor grounds somewhere.

When I turn on the ignition and turn the blinker on either side, both front and back blinkers work fine. But, the parking lights front and back also turn on steady on only the blinking side also, they have a "very slight" pulse to them that is opposite of the turn signals, but they are mostly on steadily.

[ossiblue]

Again, just guessing here, but I'd still suspect the turn signal switch mainly because the parking lights don't work in the ignition off position as they should. The weak blinking of the parking lights when the blinkers are on is probably a slight dimming as the turn light draws current to blink, meaning the parking light is powered when the turn stalk is moved to the blinker position--something that shouldn't happen.

I hope someone who is more expert and has worked with the turn signal switch will answer soon, as I have never had to deal with that. Since the same switch, when operating correctly, operates both turn lights and parking lights (depending on position of ignition), you still may have a problem with the wiring at the ignition switch (as first noted) since you can't be sure if the parking lights (through the turn switch) were operational before your wiring project. You may want to follow up on the condition of the ignition switch too as they do go bad. Try a search as I think I remember some discussion of igniton switch problems.

Oh yeah, check and clean all grounds.

[Fritter]

Originally Posted by ossiblue

Again, just guessing here, but I'd still suspect the turn signal switch mainly because the parking lights don't work in the ignition off position as they should. The weak blinking of the parking lights when the blinkers are on is probably a slight dimming as the turn light draws current to blink, meaning the parking light is powered when the turn stalk is moved to the blinker position--something that shouldn't happen.

Yes, I'm sure you are correct on the slight dimming...this is weird that this happened right after I worked on the license lamp light...I probably screwed something up

Originally Posted by ossiblue

I hope someone who is more expert and has worked with the turn signal switch will answer soon, as I have never had to deal with that. Since the same switch, when operating correctly, operates both turn lights and parking lights (depending on position of ignition), you still may have a problem with the wiring at the ignition switch (as first noted) since you can't be sure if the parking lights (through the turn switch) were operational before your wiring project. You may want to follow up on the condition of the ignition switch too as they do go bad. Try a search as I think I remember some discussion of igniton switch problems.
Oh yeah, check and clean all grounds.

Well, the problem is not a show stopper since the signals still work, it's just an added "quirk" that I'd like to get working correctly at some point.

[ossiblue]

At least your problem is not critical to driving.

Just another thought, you might try to troubleshoot your Euro parking light feature--one side on when turning stalk is moved up or down and ignition off. Since that doesn't work on your car, and it should, maybe dealing with that one problem will cure or lead to the answer to the original problem.

[Fritter]

Originally Posted by ossiblue

At least your problem is not critical to driving.
Just another thought, you might try to troubleshoot your Euro parking light feature--one side on when turning stalk is moved up or down and ignition off. Since that doesn't work on your car, and it should, maybe dealing with that one problem will cure or lead to the answer to the original problem.

I was thinking today that some connection may be reversed, because parking lights with ignition off do not work, but parking lights turn on when the turn signal is used with ignition on.....hmmmm........

[ossiblue]

When you begin your investigation, check out this diagram--courtesy of our host.

http://www.pelicanparts.com/911/911_Parts/Electrical/911_electrical_1965.jpg

[304065]

Originally Posted by Fritter

John, the turn signal switch is black. I will check out the wires on the back of the ignition switch, although I did not change anything there.

UPDATE: My ignition switch has these wires:

Term 54 - thick red wire to HL switch
Term 30 - thin grey wire to turn signal switch, thin yellow wire to radio
Term 15 - thin red wire to turn signal switch, thick red wire to fuse box
Term 50 - thin yellow wire to starter
Term P0 - empty

Ignition switch has these markings on it:
Made in W Germany, a K with a circle around it, 8276/2, 22715

I think all is hooked up OK.

Here's the factory diagram, a little simpler by deleting the other circuits. I'm not certain of course, but it's possible that some PO could have mixed up terminals on the switch. My switch is in storage while the car's away but I can check next weekend.

"DIN 72552" which is a list of terminal codes. The terminals on the switch are:

"30" to turn signal switch and headlight switch, red
"50" to starter solenoid, yellow
"15" back to hot side of fuse box
"75" to radio, probably not hooked up?
"57a" to turn signal switch for Euro park lamps, grey. This last circuit is interesting-- it carries power when the ignition is OFF to the turn signal switch to light up one side or the other depending on which position the lever is in.



So you've got the same wires but different terminals. Be very careful: some PO could have hooked things up so everything worked, but when you put everything right, you get shorts. So work with the battery disconnected and have a fire extinguisher ready: when you connect the battery, the first thing you should do is look for shorts, smoke, unusual behavior, etc.

Hope this helps! And I'm hoping it helps me when it's time to reassemble. Good luck!

[Fritter]

Wow, thanks for the detail John! SWB guys need to stick together, right?

I still have these questions:

1. Why does the wiring diagram show terminals 75 and 57a when they are nowhere to be found on the actual ignition switch?

2. Similarly, why does the actual ignition switch have terminals P0 and 54 which are not on the wiring diagram?

Is there a conversion somewhere? Can anyone else with a '68 (or a SWB car) look at their ignition connections and post what color wires go where? I can't sleep until I get everything fixed just right.

[Fritter]

Update: After consulting with Bob Tilton, I hooked everything up according to the '65 wiring diagram. I found that:

1. 75 in wiring diagram is 54 on my and Bob's switch
2. 57a on wiring diagram is Po on my and Bob's switch

Nothing blew up or burned and all is well. Turn signals now work without driving lights coming on. Only thing wrong on my car now is that parking lights don't come on left or right with ignition off, but that may just be a crusty switch.

Thanks for all of your help everyone.

Mike F.

[bob tilton]

Hey Mike,
Attaching pic just in case:

[Fritter]

Thanks Bob! I got your email too.