Engine Flush ?

[Thrlls]

Okay, I've searched and could not find an answer to my question...maybe this is a stupid question to ask about a 3.2 Porsche motor, but here goes.

I am expecting to get my car on the 4th..if all goes well with the Super Ferry from the neighbor island Kauai.
When I do get it, one of the first things I'd like to do is change out the oil. The car has 95k miles on it BTW.
I would like to flush out as much of the dirty oil & sludge as possible, as from what I read it's difficult to do with the piping and cooler.

Here are the questions:
Has anyone ever tried using automatic transmission fluid to clean the internals before draining the oil? I know most engine flushes are similar to kerosene, but I've read/saw with other motors, ATF being used as a cleaner prior to an oil change.

Would ATF cause possible damage to the internal is run for 5 - 10 minutes?

Another question, is there a way to drain the oil in the cooler and lines? I mean an easy way that is, without having to remove the cooler.

Any advice with this is appreciated.

[HarryD]

Woody,

Welcome to the joy.

When you get your car, be sure to post some pictures.

I would not worry too much about a 100% flush. Your car holds 12+ quarts of oil. I would run it until it is hot, drain the oil, refill & replace filter, run is a few weeks and, if I think it needs it, after a few 100 miles, replace the oil & filter again.

[euro911sc]

Never heard of using ATF to clean your engine out...

In order to get the oil in the cooler/lines out on a cold engine you will have to open the lines at the t-stat. The t-stat threads are VERY delicate and its not one of the easier things to do. You can buy a steel insert to make this easier the next time you want it done... You can then drain the lines and the cooler.

If you can heat the t-stat or drive the car till its hot it will open, but you still have the problem of some oil trapped in the lines and I think you will have to park on an incline to get the oil out of the cooler... then you still have a smiggen left in the tank as the drain hole will not be the lowest point in the tank... but its not much.

You might just consider changing the oil... driving for a while... change the oil again... Will cost more, but easier.

Aloha,

michael

[Formerly Steve Wilkinson]

Sludge is sludge. If it's there, it won't come out with a simple oil change. But what makes you think there _is_ sludge? Is this a car without a recorded oil change for 50,000 miles?

In any case, don't think an oil change, or multiple oil changes, will deal with true sludge. That's why it's called sludge....

[Evans, Marv]

Just change the oil & filter if you want. Trying to "flush" out an engine is playing with fire in terms of the engine internals. Steve is right about the sludge.

[DW SD]

I've heard that the detergents in ATF will break down sludge. Not sure I'd advocate with the cost of these engines, but maybe some oil expert will chime in.

Change the valve cover gaskets after doing a valve adjustment and see for yourself if there is sludge.

Doug

[alniki]

A reputable local parts dealer recommended OWS 210 Engine Flush (made in Germany) or, its industrial equivalent, Omega 907 (made in Australia) for such application. I've used the latter for my last oil change but I cannot tell objectively how well it works besides that the oil drained looked pretty dark. They may be good choices if you believe in engine flush.

Also, you can probably drain more oil out if you disconnect the hose between the engine and the tank bottom on either end instead of loosening the drain plug of the tank.

[Thrlls]

Originally Posted by euro911sc

You can buy a steel insert to make this easier the next time you want it done... You can then drain the lines and the cooler.

You might just consider changing the oil... driving for a while... change the oil again... Will cost more, but easier.

Aloha,

michael

Michael - Do you have a link where I can purchase this steel insert?
Mahalo for your advice!

Originally Posted by Formerly Steve Wilkinson

But what makes you think there _is_ sludge? Is this a car without a recorded oil change for 50,000 miles?

Steve - or Formerly Steve - I have no idea if it has sludge, and there are some records of oil changes...I just can't remember how often. However, I'm just a little anal when it comes to a purchase of a use vehicle that I did not maintain. I plan on changing out the clutch as well...and installing a LTW flywheel and a few other items down the road. I just want to have a good starting point with this car especially since it's my first Porsche. I know the sludge won't come out with a simple oil change, but it can get clean with multiple changes as others have mentioned, and I thought maybe with some type of oil flush it may speed up the process. However, I don't want to do that at the cost of the engine, and I know like you say, true sludge will not come out, but I do believe it can get better and be maintained so it doesn't get worse.
Mahalo for your insight Steve? (hmmm not sure what to call you since you were formally Steve)

Originally Posted by Evans, Marv

Just change the oil & filter if you want. Trying to "flush" out an engine is playing with fire in terms of the engine internals. Steve is right about the sludge.

Marv - Mahalo for the advice as I don't want to harm the internals at all. I don't want to sign up sooner than I plan for Bruce Anderson's training...which I feel I need to do. And I agree, with you & Steve that not ALL of the sludge will come out.

Mahalo to Everyone else that gave their advice.
I truly appreciate it!

[Walt Fricke]

Woody

You are, indeed, being too anal. I've never seen sludge in any of my 911s, and I am careless about maintenance.

I got my '77 (gray market car) in '84. About '87 or so I replaced the Ps and Cs. Had a good look inside doing it, no issues. About '89 it blew up (valve head fell off). Pulled the mess apart, no sludge. Got an '82, who knows its history either. About '97 pulled it apart (broken rings). Again, no sludge.

To satisfy your anal urges, though, do this: disconnect the oil inlet line at the front oil cooler. It is up high so you won't make too much of a mess. Blow compressed air through the cooler. That should force most of the oil back into the oil tank (through the filter, by the way). Those fittings are not as apt to be ruined by disassembly as the aluminum to steel fittings on the thermostat in the back. I just did something like this while changing an oil radiator (horizontal in front valance opening, so it was going to spill a lot when disconnected). Worked fine.

If you do this after you have drained the oil tank, you ought not to have a problem with oil being blown up into the air cleaner-throttle body area.

That way you will get out something more like the 12 or so quart full capacity, rather than the usual 8 or so. Which means you have to add more in (carefully, as overfilling is easy. With such a large tank, an underfill isn't really a problem if you take things easy until the oil is hot and you can measure it accurately in the tank and top off).

One thing you could do is take the old oil filter, when you change the oil and it, and cut it open (best to find someone who has a purpose made tool to do this like a can opener, so you don't get stray saw filings in there to complicate things) and look at what it caught. I bet you won't find much, and what you find may be a little bit of sort of tiny silvery stuff - as in normal metal shavings from bearings and cylinders and rings and such. If it is all clogged with copper, well you have worse issues than putative sludge with which to deal.

Oh - you can purchase an oil analysis kit, so you could save some of your old oil and have it analyzed.

But you'd be nuts (not to put too fine a point on it) to pour some stuff into your engine other than fresh oil. I think that kind of thing went out with the '20s. Sure, it sounds good - clean out the old, start fresh. But the insides of these engines are very very clean absent horrific abuse, and even poor modern oils are fairly decent. The filters catch the particulates, so all the engine innards see is nice slippery oil. The odds that previous owners never changed oil or filters, and just added the odd quart every couple of thousand miles for several hundred thousand miles, are pretty slim. And if they did that, you've got problems cleaning may well not fix.

Walt Fricke

[RWebb]

ATF is what people is the South used to "clean out" engines. I remember this from my mis-spent youth. Also, I remember the Porter Wagonner Show on B&W TV, they advertised "Black Draught" with the phrase "Really cleans you out." I have always avoided both. I do, however, recommend the red beans & rice. After all, it was Louis Armstrong's favorite dish. Have some of that instead.

If still worried, just change the oil 2-3 times in quick succession -- 500 miles; 1,000; or 2,000 whatever you like.

[Thrlls]

Originally Posted by Walt Fricke

Woody

You are, indeed, being too anal. I've never seen sludge in any of my 911s, and I am careless about maintenance.

I got my '77 (gray market car) in '84. About '87 or so I replaced the Ps and Cs. Had a good look inside doing it, no issues. About '89 it blew up (valve head fell off). Pulled the mess apart, no sludge. Got an '82, who knows its history either. About '97 pulled it apart (broken rings). Again, no sludge.

To satisfy your anal urges, though, do this: disconnect the oil inlet line at the front oil cooler. It is up high so you won't make too much of a mess. Blow compressed air through the cooler. That should force most of the oil back into the oil tank (through the filter, by the way). Those fittings are not as apt to be ruined by disassembly as the aluminum to steel fittings on the thermostat in the back. I just did something like this while changing an oil radiator (horizontal in front valance opening, so it was going to spill a lot when disconnected). Worked fine.

If you do this after you have drained the oil tank, you ought not to have a problem with oil being blown up into the air cleaner-throttle body area.

That way you will get out something more like the 12 or so quart full capacity, rather than the usual 8 or so. Which means you have to add more in (carefully, as overfilling is easy. With such a large tank, an underfill isn't really a problem if you take things easy until the oil is hot and you can measure it accurately in the tank and top off).

One thing you could do is take the old oil filter, when you change the oil and it, and cut it open (best to find someone who has a purpose made tool to do this like a can opener, so you don't get stray saw filings in there to complicate things) and look at what it caught. I bet you won't find much, and what you find may be a little bit of sort of tiny silvery stuff - as in normal metal shavings from bearings and cylinders and rings and such. If it is all clogged with copper, well you have worse issues than putative sludge with which to deal.

Oh - you can purchase an oil analysis kit, so you could save some of your old oil and have it analyzed.

But you'd be nuts (not to put too fine a point on it) to pour some stuff into your engine other than fresh oil. I think that kind of thing went out with the '20s. Sure, it sounds good - clean out the old, start fresh. But the insides of these engines are very very clean absent horrific abuse, and even poor modern oils are fairly decent. The filters catch the particulates, so all the engine innards see is nice slippery oil. The odds that previous owners never changed oil or filters, and just added the odd quart every couple of thousand miles for several hundred thousand miles, are pretty slim. And if they did that, you've got problems cleaning may well not fix.

Walt Fricke

Okay Walt!
This sounds like something I'll do to get the most oil out. I'll definitely keep away from the flush stuff...but how about Slick 50? ...just kidding!
I think this will satisfy my wanting to tear apart the engine just to clean it!

I'll also send my oil to Blackstone, as I have used them before, and you're right, if there is copper sludge will not be my problem.

Mahalo Walt!

[Thrlls]

Originally Posted by RWebb

ATF is what people is the South used to "clean out" engines. I remember this from my mis-spent youth. Also, I remember the Porter Wagonner Show on B&W TV, they advertised "Black Draught" with the phrase "Really cleans you out." I have always avoided both. I do, however, recommend the red beans & rice. After all, it was Louis Armstrong's favorite dish. Have some of that instead.

If still worried, just change the oil 2-3 times in quick succession -- 500 miles; 1,000; or 2,000 whatever you like.

I'll take the Azuki beans all right, along with some Poke'

Of course you do realize Hawaii is the Southern most State...hence the ATF theory.

[RoninLB]

i've used ATF on neglected marine Detroit iron. Crap will pour out like honey.

i've also used coffee beans to quiet rear ends..


otherwise, your 911 only needs a 10mi drive and drain your oil hot.

[Thrlls]

Originally Posted by RoninLB

i've used ATF on neglected marine Detroit iron. Crap will pour out like honey.

i've also used coffee beans to quiet rear ends..


otherwise, your 911 only needs a 10mi drive and drain your oil hot.

I would think the coffee beans would "wake up" the rear ends...that's what happened to my bimmers!

[Quicksilver]

Any time you go and try to 'knock something loose' in a circulating system you need to remember that you have now set it to circulate. In a person this is called 'a stroke' and is caused by knocking loose some gunk (a clot) which lets it circulate up to your brain. (That is why you should never use a vibrator/massager on unexplained calf pain)

ATF and other things such as Rislone are used to 'flush' engines. In actuality what people are usually trying to do is reduce varnish. This is good to reduce a noisy hydraulic lifter. The other use I have seen for ATF is when it is extremely cold (think 50° below zero) people use it as a partial or complete replacement of engine oil.

This doesn't fit you needs. You haven't lost a bearing and need to clean out debris. You are just trying to fix something that isn't a problem. You have a much greater chance of creating a problem and an almost zero chance of alleviating a problem by doing this.

If you come up with a REAL need to flush the front lines the correct way to do it is remove the parts from the car and have them cleaned.

Oh, and remember that oils have detergent additives in them to very slowly and safely deal with deposits. Just change the oil regularly.

[euro911sc]

Woody,

Here is the t-stat saver I talked about:

http://www.pelicanparts.com/cgi-bin/ksearch/PEL_search.cgi?command=show_part_page&please_wait=N&make=POR&model=911M&section=ENGoil&page=3&bookmark=10&part_number=PEL-PP901687

But, Walt had the better idea using compressed air.

These engines do run very clean. I have my '82 apart and after 90k miles all I have is a slight varnish on the engine case internals. You will be fine!

Best regards,

Michael

[Thrlls]

Originally Posted by euro911sc

Woody,

Here is the t-stat saver I talked about:

http://www.pelicanparts.com/cgi-bin/ksearch/PEL_search.cgi?command=show_part_page&please_wait=N&make=POR&model=911M&section=ENGoil&page=3&bookmark=10&part_number=PEL-PP901687

But, Walt had the better idea using compressed air.

These engines do run very clean. I have my '82 apart and after 90k miles all I have is a slight varnish on the engine case internals. You will be fine!

Best regards,

Michael

Mahalo Michael for the link and the info on your engine.

Wayne - Nice analogy with the clot, as I have had that problem too in my calve after a major knee surgery. Fortunately the clotting was not too severe and blood thinners help. I see what you mean, even if the human body is much more precise than a mechanical engine. I was more concerned about seals not being able to handle whatever type of flush was being used, but still I'll take the advice from you and others on proceeding with oil changes and having my oil analyzed.
Mahalo!

[M.D. Holloway]

Dude, PM me with your shipping adress and I will send you a flushing oil that you will add directly to the exisiting oil (at a 1:10 mix ration). That means for the 3 gallons you have slooshing around add 3 quarts. Drive it around for a week or so then drain it all out. I have used it in my 77 as well as my Volvos and our Honda. I also have about 3 dozen case studies performed on all sorts of oil lubricated equipment.

The stuff doesn't contain any solvents, acids or caustics. It also doesn;t contain any diesel, karosine or any sort of light distillate. It is formulated with a very pure base oil and fortified with a very nice dose of non-foam detergents.

There have been a few guys on Pelican that have used it with great success. If you want, feel free to question it on the OT and see what sort of responce you get. Trust me brotha, it won't mess you up.

[Greek55]

How about just running Mobile one? It must clean away something in the engine because whenever I put it in my car it starts leaking from all parts of the engine.

[Por_sha911]

I agree with most of the previous posts that you may be causing a problem to fix something that doesn't exist. Don't put stuff in there that doesn't belong. If you use ATF to flush out the oil then what will flush out the ATF???

Having said that, I do respect an anal Porsche owner so here is a suggestion give to me by a very respected Porsche expert:
Get the gas tank down to a 1/4 tank. Put in two bottles of Techron in the fuel tank (that's right, 2 into the fuel tank- this will give you a super concentrate). Drive it hard till you are down to between empty - 1/8 of a tank. Fill it up and drive it tilll it is down to about 1/2 tank. Fill it up again and do an oil change. Your oil will smell like Techron.

This will 1) clean injectors and valves, and, 2) "flush" oil passages with something that is Porsche approved (albeit in a greater quantity than suggested).

Be sure to do this only when you are ready to do an oil change. If you are nervous about the above, use just one bottle.