Question regarding older vs newer 911

[nikos]

Hello, and thank you for reading my thread.

I am trying to understand what is going on with the pricing of the carrera sc vs the 996..

Locally there are a few cars for sale... a 1985 911 sc for $25k with 185K miles (lol yeah you read right) and a 2000 carrera 2 clean 81k miles for $19000

I understand the older porsches keep their prices and so on, but is there something about the water cooled 911 motors that I am missing?

So a car like this one




vs
this one




I would love to have both, but I don't see how they are worth the same used.

Are the water cooler porsche engines not as valuable in the used market?

Thank you for any advice.

Nikos

[nh911]

There is no such thing as a 1985 911sc. 911sc were 1978-1983. and if it is a 1985 carrera then it is over priced for the miles. But the older cars do hold there value much better and are worth close to as much as some 2000 911s. Those two cars are completely different driving experiences.

[kidrock]

Nikos,

my personal opinion is that the value has less to do with the motor, and more to do with the actual value of the vehicle. As is the nature with vehicles, the value will continue to drop until it hits an actual, "real" value...in other words, what the general public is willing to pay for that particular car at that particular time.

Eventually, the car value will hit an arbitrary bottom number. Then, as the car becomes more rare or desirable, the actual value will either level off, or rise in conjunction with it's desirability.

Again, I don't think that the dropping value of a more modern, air-cooled P-car has much (if anything) to do with the fact that it's water-cooled. Many people recognize that the newer generation Porsche has some flaws or reliability issues. What car doesn't? It's also very likely that in 20-30 years, these same cars may become very desirable and expensive...maybe even because they will be considered attractive as the first generation of water-cooled motors.

[JB36]

Most air cooled 911s have already bottomed out depreciation wise and market is pretty firm. Most enthusiasts in the used car market seem to prefer air cooled; creating a demand for good cars.

The 996 is still depreciating, but I would think bottom out soon. Porsche sold a ton of these so there is a good supply. Water pumpers don't seem to have the following of an air cooled version. The depreciation rate of new 911s seem to be quite high. It doesn't take too long for an 80k car to become a 45K. In 10 yrs, it's 20K car.

25K for 185k mile '85 is crazy. I guess some people think they have a pot of gold. I would look at models and test drive them. See which one you like best.

[JeremyD]

Well one is a performance toyota and the other is a hand built sports car.

[Peter Zimmermann]

Nikos: My view is that Porsche has not provided components that would allow an independent shop or DIYer to repair a broken/worn out 996. Buyers know that if the troublesome water cooled motor fails the only way to repair the car is to buy an exchange motor from a P-car dealer (big bucks!), or buy an unknown motor from a wrecker. Installation, oil, coolant, etc., are all expensive, as is the boot-up process before the car can be driven.

Buyers also know that the 6-speed manual transmission might not last (bearing failure) to 100K miles, and will cost about $12K to replace, also at the dealer, also on an exchange basis due to lack of parts.

So, if you're looking at a 1999 > 996, with 75K miles, outwardly the low price might look good. In reality, the next 30K miles might cost a small fortune to drive, thanks only to Porsche and their refusal to supply parts to repair components at far more reasonable prices.

I have seen a number of very presentable Boxsters recently, 1998-2002 models, that are priced less than my '82 SC coupe with 203K miles is worth.

[450knotOffice]

The older cars are becoming classics so that has a lot to do with the difference. Additionally, they are far fewer in number than the 996, so supply and demand is also at work here, not to mention that the majority of buyers of the air cooled cars are middle aged enthusiasts (like me) who remember these cars when they were new and have always wanted to own one of their own.

What Peter said regarding major overhauls for the 996's has been true up until recently. There are now a few well known rebuilders of these engines, one of whom participates on this forum once in a while, Jake Raby.

With care, these cars can last a long, long time. Many of the 996 enthusiasts on the Rennlist forum have cars with way over 100,000 miles. In fact, there are at least a couple with over 200,000 miles. Imagine that. My 996 has 86,000 miles (increasing by more than 1,500/month) and runs like a Swiss watch. It's also an awesome back country road weapon when driven hard.

Were those pictures taken in Oregon or Washington?

[Rikao4]

when you close your eyes and think
' my Porsche..'
the kind you can afford..
that's your car...
don't worry if it's old or new..
it's yours..
there some models I lust after,
and some I would sell ..
just to buy another 'old one'


Rika

[gregwils]

What Pete and Scott said. It's a combo of supply and demand, plus future operating costs.

[mca]

You should find out more about the Carrera. Need to know WHY it is being offered at $25k.

Engine and tranny professionally rebuilt? Euro model? Track car mods (brakes,suspension, etc)? If it has these, it may certainly be worth that much. If not and it is completely original it would be priced in the teens given the mileage.

The headlights alone are enough to make the 996 19K (joke).

[Deschodt]

Makes you think about picking up a 996 as a track car though.... Those things are FAST and will humble our old aircooled cars, and they ARE a lot of fun to drive - you just need to go faster (which the car will gladly let you do) - but it's still a 911 that squats in turns...

No question which one is the collectible in the bunch, but heck, sub 20K for a 996, why have beater honda or VW? You put a GT3 body kit and stiffer shocks, and you have yourself a damn nice $25K beast !

[nikos]

Thank you so far from the great replies.

Briefly, I grew up in greece so my version of a vette or z28 was the 911. I never owned one but as I am getting older I am finding myself closer and closer in getting one.

I work on all my cars and I put together racing motors for hondas.. so yeah I have a lot to learn about porsches.. So reading your replies really helps trumendously

Here's another one

2002 Carrera 4s turbo look , he wants 27K



Looking at this car, I get goose bumps.. But I understand what you are saying.. If something goes wrong, it would be hard for me to find a solution without spending a lot of money.

I have driven a couple 911 turbo and grand prix 1989 carrera and overall I love porsches.

Believe it or not, my 1992 civic with a 300whp N/A motor on 93 pump gas can yield enough money for me to buy one of the above but I guess I always want to assume that I will be able to fix anything that goes wrong.. maybe I am spoiled by the hondas that I normally work with.. I am not a certified mechanic, that is my hobbie..

that;s one my cars here



i am a civil engineer by trade, oh yeah.. having 3 kids doesn't help either

[nikos]

Originally Posted by Deschodt

but heck, sub 20K for a 996, why have beater honda or VW? You put a GT3 body kit and stiffer shocks, and you have yourself a damn nice $25K beast !

You read my mind on this one

[nikos]

Here';s some GT3 pics from my friend who is a fabricator and made some headers for this GT3.. just to keep it tech

[nikos]

last off topic picture, I promise

here;s the dynojet I use.. yes, this is a barn!



Milton, WV area

[RKC]

If you can get into the mid to high $30's, you can get a certified 996 car, which means at least 2 years of warranty coverage for drivetrain....

Loved my 87, which I just sold this spring with 38,000 miles on it (for $22k BTW), but the newer cars off lease are steals right now....

Don't think I like one better than the other. So much is the same, and yet so much is different with them.

Porsche made the air-cooled 911 about perfect through the years, and the 996 was all-new. Porsche is small too, so I'd stay away from any ofthe earliest years of Boxster or 996. Interior improved quite a bit in 2002 or so also....just my $0.02.

[JeremyD]

Originally Posted by Deschodt

Makes you think about picking up a 996 as a track car though.... Those things are FAST and will humble our old aircooled cars, and they ARE a lot of fun to drive - you just need to go faster (which the car will gladly let you do) - but it's still a 911 that squats in turns...

No question which one is the collectible in the bunch, but heck, sub 20K for a 996, why have beater honda or VW? You put a GT3 body kit and stiffer shocks, and you have yourself a damn nice $25K beast !

Good point Greg - the newer cars - with 20 years of suspension innovation will absolutely walk an earlier car. They will even give a modified car fits. They are alot of car for the money - but they are also alot of things that can go wrong for the money which I think is what is driving down the used car prices. I have a friend that's a checkbook mechanic with a 996. When things go wrong - it puts a pretty good ding in that checkbook!

[450knotOffice]

A checkbook mechanic is going to take a big hit to the checkbook when anything goes wrong with an old one or a new one. Parts are expensive for both and labor is the same.

For me, I do just about all of the maintenance on both of my Carreras - saves me a lot of money.

[rfn026]

I call it the 20-year rule. Most cars hit bottom twenty years after they were first registered. Then the curve takes a U-turn and moves back up the other side. Right now the '89s are turning the corner. The 996 will start to to the same thing in about 10 years. In other words it's going to drop in value for the next 10 years.

I think the 993 is one Porsche that's really going to hit the upside big time.

Richard

[craig356]

Comparing a mid 80's 911 to a 993 is kind of like comparing a 356 to the mid 80's 911. 356 Porsches are bring big money compared to mid 80's 911 and there is not near the technology in a 356, but it goes back to supply and demand. It is increasingly difficult to find a good, solid 356 and they are an icon (IMO) in the sports car world, therefore, prices are high. It is also, slowly but surely, becoming increasingly difficult to find a good mid 80's 911, not to mention a longhood and their prices. I guess the point I am trying to make is just because a car is newer with more technological advancements does not dictate the price consumers are willing to pay. Well for me, I love them all....

All the best,
Craig