How Ironic
 

My 74 Chocolate Brown came with the car magazine that featured the 74's. At that time, the concensus was that that base model 911 was the choice of the test drivers. The 74's were the best sports car in the world in their price range and then some.

My 74 has just made 91K original miles and no leaks. The prior owner did all maintenance like clock work as he was a mechanical engineer and cared for the car as it should be. He was the original owner. I bought a 74 as no emissions (TR's) were ever on the engine and the lines of the car were what I wanted. The middies are still light, raw and I love the sound of the car.

I understand the issues that come with the middies, but a well cared for middie is a great ride and representation of the evolution of the 911. Yes, I love the early 911's and the power of the SC's and Carrera's, but middies are great cars to.

Remember -- the '74s differ from the others re the pollution and other stuff on them.

Also, the 49 state cars differ from the Calif. cars... esp. if they were operated in a cool environment all their lives such as the PNW.

It is such details that allow the savy buyer to scoop up a "pretty likely to be fine" mid-year (aka 2.7L motored) car at the depressed prices they usually go for.

This is just flat wrong. My '76 car is un-rebuilt and has 128,000 miles. It has no external oil cooler. It runs strong. It had the 11 blade fan put on early in its life and the Thermal Reactors removed early too.

It is NOT a given that, "...a complete rebuild is imminent". Could one be? Absolutely. MUST it be? No! I'm not saying the typical mid years didn't have problems; many of them did, especially in California. But these cars are now over 30 years old - the issues withthem ANDthe fixes for these issues are long since well known. Why does everyone repeat these old truisms like they are the latest information? Sure, my car may be unusual but my point is that just because this car has 65,000 miles or whatever, doesn't make it an automatic or "imminent" candidate for a rebuild. I think Bruce ought to revise that tired old text he keeps repeating.

It is correct to warn newbies that mid year cars had issues but they're JUST LIKE Carrera valve guide issues, 964 dual distributor belts, dual mass flywheels, and 993 OBDII issues.

:eek: Your OCD? MY OCD! I bought that piece of crap mirror when my car was in the shop for the full paint and I wanted to backdate the mirror to the '74-'75 version. Pelican didn't have any so I think I bought it from Oklahoma Foreign. The guy there warned me the quality wasn't that great, the sheet metal a touch wavy. I HAd to take it ($80!) because the body man was welding shut the flag mirror hole and needed the mirro that would replace it.

This thing is a POS, period. it is cast in such a way that it cannot be adjusted upward like it should. Physically impossible. I have taken it off and looked for casting slag to remove, etc, but there isn't any. It is just made wrong. I have been looking and looking for a stock, good condition one but to no avail so far.

I don't dare drop ANOTHER $80 on another oone as I'm afraid all of the knockoffs are this bad. Yes, I've checked the door skin profile and it is the same as the one on my buddie's '71T.

"Why does everyone repeat these old truisms like they are the latest information?"

- Because they are highly accurate and save people from a hellish experience??

Dan, note that you listed 2 exceptions for your car form the stmt. he made...

The fact is, that most people are going to get into trouble if they just go out and buy a 2.7L motored car. Few first time buyers are going to have your level of sophistication.

Bruce already revised what he says about these cars. Have you read what he says in the last 2-3 years? I think it is very fair.

RWebb,
No, I am not aware Bruce has revised his advice on the purchase of Mid year cars. I will be interested to read it but I am guessing it will STILL advise new buyers not to buy them, why?

Here's my point. Old cars (any) are more likely to have mechanical issues. old sports cars are perhaps only MORe likely to have mechanical issues. Better cared for examples are less likely to. What is new about that? Certain cars regardless of make, have certain issues identified with them over their lives. The Porsche 911 is no different.

As for these truisms about 2.7's being highly accurate, not necessarily so. They WERE highly accurate at one time. It would have been great to know about those issues definitively in 1980 for example, but it is not so accurate now.

Why? These cars are 30 years old now so there are really few that have not had the known issues already addressed if they appeared. Of the few like my car - long termers, higher mileage cars without these I make the case that they are no different than ANY 128,000 mile 911. They are old, there MAY be a rebuild coming up depending on what the PPI indicates. But they apparently aren't any more likely than another well cared for 128,000 mile, PPI-tested 911. They are no more (or less) of a "leper" or a bad experience for the prospective first time buyer than an Early car for the rust, Carreras for the guides, 964's for the dizzy's/flywheels, or 993's for the OBDII issues.

As for your comment, "Few first time buyers are going to have your level of sophistication" - thank you. I agree that few will have the knowledge ANY of us on this board have...so won't those first time buyers be just as likely to buy a "bad car" buying an Early, Carerra, 964 or 993 for the issues associated with those cars? I think they will.

[QUOTE] I think that's one of the points isn't it with the particular car that generated the original message? That the engine was not modified in any way. Seems like you had the benefit in terms of longevity of a couple of mods that helped the motor buck the so called trend.

It's been beaten to death here but in the end, a PPI by a competent resource is the only real way to evaluate any Porsche engine, 2.7 or otherwise and specifically look at known potential issues whether it be pulled studs or valve guides, etc.

Exactly, Jerry.

And... "These cars are 30 years old now so there are really few that have not had the known issues already addressed if they appeared."
- This is plausible, but IS IT TRUE? If so, how d'ya know?

And, no, an inexperienced buyer is nowhere near going as far wrong (in terms of $$) with an avg. SC or Carrerrrrra as with a 2.7L. Not even close.

Don't get me wrong. The 2.7 has a special place in my heart (at least 3 places in fact; e.g. it was the base for the '73 RS). Just not in my head. I sold mine (the 2nd one I had I mean) which was fine and fixed up, b/c a 3.2 Al case made a whole lot more sense.

Love This Board And Its Participants!
 

This string is exactly why I enjoy visiting this board. Great knowledge, humor, expertise, perspective, solutions an information. Its a guarantee that all newbies and pro's have benefited from visiting this board. I have personally had responses and pulled up tech articles that have made my P-Car experience a great one. My prior P-Cars were 912's (67, 68, 69) so the info on this board has been very helpful.

Most Humorous Post:

My own, asking about the Cool Collar and finding all the things it can be used for beyond what it was intended . . . ABSOLUTELY HYSTERICAL!

See ya on the road!

AshEvan,

Do you think you could scan and post the images of the '74 magazine article? Or, if able, you could e-mail it to me. I've been looking for a review of the '74 years. Thanks!

Nate

As mentioned by someone else that graph is not accurate. Please bring me all of the 1972 S cars you can round up for 18K I will buy them all. ;) As long as they are good DD quality cars.

Also, 74's and 75's are getting very hard to come by in California. I think it was about 2 years ago now that they got rid of the rolling smog exemption. (Sucks my SC would be exempt in Jan. )

74's would be a little more desireable than 75 just b/c they had 0 smog equipment if in fact they changed the rules again. However, I think that there is a grandfather clause for all laws so if you own a 75 today you never smog again. (I could be wrong)

It is interesting to see the prices quoted here. I have spent the last few days trying to beat the price of 15K on that car and it is actually quite difficult. Depending in the criteria you use.

Yes, a very nice condition DD car with TMU / well maintained high mile cars... engine swap cars, and just generally lightly modified cars seem to be in the 12 ish range. ... average cars seem to be around 7-8K and well cant seem to find another low mileage original at the moment so I will let that one set the bar for extra clean. Note ultra modified cars dont count since easily 10X that amount can be thrown in the black hole :)

2.7's were born with thermal reactors, smog pumps and 5 blade cooling fans, with a magnesium case.
So how is it that thirty years later, with all this crap removed and the engines still performing after 30 years, they haven't been able to crawl out from under this orphan/bastard reputation.
The folks in the 3.0's and 3.2's certainly don't want to discuss "issues" after finishing behind my 2.7.
I'd say surviving for over thirty years, inspite of the best efforts to handicap these engines, surely deserves some respect.
Let's discuss the several engines built prior to the 2.7's with mag cases. Smaller displacements with even more HP.
Yes, if I had purchased a new 2.7 and experienced premature failures, I would not be happy.
However this is old news.
Of course this is the only model Porsche ever built that had any kind of problem.
Tongue firmly planted in cheek.
Keep banging on 'em, keeps what few parts I need cheap.

'74 did not have thermal reactors, smog pumps or a 5 blade cooling fans. They had early style heat exchangers, 11 blade fan and none of the problems associated with the 2.7 as per the negative press. There may have been cases of pulled studs but not nearly as prevalent as the 75 - 77 cars.

Just thought I would throw that in SmileWavy

The problem is that not all of them HAVE survived.

Larry R. - your points re absolute values are inapposite - please go back and read my comments when I posted the data.

Man I had to go look up inapposite :) to figure out how to respond :) guess I should spend less time with computers and more time reading english.

sorry to drink and post ... but would still buy as many 18K S cars as I can :D

my input
 

i have a 75 targa, i paid 8? or so in 2002 for it. truth be told my 15 year old son found it on cars.com and i decided to get it as a project for us. But lucky for me, the engine was rebuilt 20k miles ago by a shop in tennessee and paid for by a previous owner. the shop did all of the updates, carrera chain tensioners, case savers, and numberous enhancements according to the bill, there is 60k on the car now, and we put on about 18k miles in 5 years and in the interim i had it repainted and a lot of rust repaired cost over 5k. thank you dick morroco. My son rarely drove it, my wife and i do every moment we can.

i replaced the interior, put in a carrera oil cooler, did a lot of other work but that would be done with any 32 year old car. i am amazed at how solid it drives though and it rides as good as my 2006 honda pilot.

the shop in tennesse that rebuilt the engine did it perfectly in my opinion, i have the bill and if someone is interested i will post the name...

As a gear head guy, the moment i started the car in Indiana, 400 miles away from my house, i knew it was strong, oh it needed a tune up, but the symphony of music from the fan, and valves was all i needed to hear.. we drove it back in one day and I did not know how lucky i was until i began to read the threads on the mid year cars from this site and read the bruce anderson put down in excellence. oh no whoa is me, what the hell did i buy , pulled head studs, bad cases, rust, rust rust man what did i buy i thought. that was 5 years ago, knock on wood no major engine problems....

yes, it is a lowly 2.7 mid year mag case car., i did not know about this site when i bought it, and i did not get a ppi, if i did i probably would have walked away, and more than likely never had a pcar but since i have owned it i am enamored by the very sweet sounding carrera exhaust and i daresay that the sound is the envy of every man in my neighborhood as they putter around in their lexi, sl's and 996's and they look up from their lawn boys as i chug by (did i mention nice torgue),, many sc's roll past my house, but none sound like this car,,, none. is it the shorter stroke with the carrera exhaust?
even the dogs like it as they bark when i go by.

but, since it is an undesirable vehicle (the mid year plagued car) i park it anywhere with the roof off; shopping malls , ball fields, and etc and so far it has remained unmolested. lets face it, no one wants to get close to the dreaded MY car as it may do bodily harm to anyone who ventures too close to it, in fact it may have un-treatable rust disease or worse give someone a thermal reaction.

But,,,,this stinking MY car engine runs to 6800 without too much effort (limite d to 7k) and the cis is simple to work on, that is if you have the tools and have an aptitude for systems and also the correct manuals and spend many hours on this board. but it beats carburetors in my book anytime.

But like a poster above, I too am amazed at bruce's put down on the MY.s, it is almost like he had a bad buy or was duped in a MY care purchase at one time? Me thinks he protests too much. These cars are not much different than the long hoods, please no flames, dont the long hoods rust? the impact bumpers are the most noticeable difference and really the 2.7 is a more powerful engine with more torque and horsepower if not encumbered by smog.

then again an sc may be a better buy, galvanized, but to me they drive like weighty beasts, is the engine more reliable? dont know,, a mag engine is expensive to rebuild but if done right should last quite a while, do you want to take it racing? i doubt it but an sc 3.0 sounds like a bloated stuffed pig compared to my operatic wagnerian 2.7 with a carrerea exhaust.

But look underneath, and see the clean mag case, with the space alien green glow and you realize how special this car is. imagine the courage porshe had to make an engine with a magnesium case. why? because they were pursuing perfection. the mag case is perfection indeed, light yet strong enough to support 200+ horsepower. It amazes me that they made this case as it had to be expensive in all facets from casting, machining, assembly to servicing. why? ess weight pure and simple. nothing beats less weight. even 10 pounds.

if the car mentioned above does not have rust, and the engine is strong, it is a buy at 15k, the mid year cars with updates will be worth 30k within 5 years. Lighter, rarer and the pursuit of excellence is the key, when Bruce wakes up from his 20 year siesta concerning these cars he will finally realize that he was wrong.

SC's will always be "reliable nice cars" but a MY car is not a reliable nice car, it is a survivor, a champion, a legend, and frankly it is a costly testament to peoples desire to maintain a dream. My MY mag case 75 #47 silver anniversary is a fun to drive, one of a kind very rare mag case, motoring vunderkind.

all of the above is just my opinion and if i had the money i would buy a 246 dino to go along with my 75 (early 75) targa. both cars were at one time, not for the cogneseti but try getting a 246 dino today and try getting a numbers matching mid year mag case and mag transmission porshe in 5 years.

wow.... im sure that is a really nice car you are looking at offering 15K for but between dans car, art car and a few other mid-years........ that car doesnt look worth 15G's to me...... there are alot of cars out here that are nicer than that......... just my .02 worth......

my engine 73K miles
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1189656637.jpg

my perfect headliner
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1189656701.jpg

my interior
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1189656737.jpg

my car 1974
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1189657050.jpg

trunk!
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1189657240.jpg

i guess my point is there are some nice cars out there.... mine is average at best,...... but not bad

i will sell you mine for 15K.......... :)

ooohhh and by the way....... before i swapped engines,.... i got 300K miles out of my orignal UNOPENED 1974 2.7 YES..... 300K miles........ in the car pictured above.

"would still buy as many 18K S cars as I can"
- Sure, wouldn't we all. I'll post updated data when the next survey comes out. I suspect we are seeing a bubble in these cars tho. Time will tell.

Silver - Bruce says what he says b/c he is in a position to advise people on what cars to get. Before the Internet (or before html anyway) he was THE center for information exchange on these cars - not just thru his book, or his multiple magazine columns, but also because of his position in PCA. He no doubt was saddened at seeing a lot of people get their wallets blown up by blown up motors.

I know it is hard to see what appears to be people raining Sh%^*t on your car - or that general class of cars. It's hard to take. But, there is a fair amount of danger in buying a 2.7L motored car -- one can reduce the danger and perhaps get a bargain but some risk remains.

It is a disservice to post claims for these cars that are not true in a public forum where people can be misled.

BTW, Porsche has won several awards for using Mg from the Mg Industry Council (paraphrasing the name) - the motor halves, the tranny, and most recently, the hoop tha supports the roof in the Boxster. They've always been at the forefront of using advanced alloys to save wt. - and were the butt of a C&D article on the craziness of it all. Most recently, I see they are starting to use Ti in the exhaust system of some cars - The 'vette beat them on that tho.

Wow, what a terrific post, thank you!

When I originally set out to buy my 911, I was looking at buying a decent Carrera or an excellent SC, as per everyone's recommendations to 'buy the most recent that you can afford'.

The more I looked, however, the more I was drawn to the mid-year cars, for various reasons; their narrow-body looks, classic silver trim, light/nimble on the road, and early 'raw' feel.

As compared with long-hoods, mid-years lend themselves more to personlisation/modification I feel bec there is not as much pressure to keep them 'original' or 'collectible'.

However, the narrow body impact bumper car has a more obvious long-hood heritage than an SC or Carrera.

Since purchasing my mid-year earlier this year, I have already outlayed far more $ than I would have buying an excellent Carrera (just completed a high quality engine and sporto trans rebuild), but I still would't trade her for a later model;

And I know that I am not alone, having bumped in to a few other owners who have chosen mid-year models in preference to later cars, there seems to be a definite (small) trend in this direction here in Aust, although mid-years cars are rarer here than in the US...