Ultimate Motor Oil Thread or Why we hate CJ4/SM oils

[cnavarro]

Originally Posted by Peter M

Why so frequent Charles?

Just a preference or do you have data to support this frequency? Just curious thanks!

(I'm assuming that this is for normally driven cars that aren't used for frequent short trips, have effective air cleaners, aren't subject to fuel dilution due to accelerator pumps or in other severe operational use.)

Many years ago I did tons of oil analysis and for most driving conditions those intervals gets you to about a 50% reduction of the initial TBN.

For most of us, our driving habits puts us in severe service which usually is somewhere between 3 months or 3,000 miles to 50% of the normal service interval recommended by the manufacturer.

[cnavarro]

Originally Posted by Marknado4000

In NZ our options are fairly limited, I cant find a supplier of Driven GT-1, our best options I can find locally are Penngrade 1 20w50 which I have been using, is this still ok in 2022 or worth hunting something else out for a regularly street driven 3.2?

I don't have a problem with Penngrade other than with their marketing. It's no longer an ARG product and isn't made in Bradford, PA.

Also, the formula has changed since the additive package they were using was discontinued by Lubrizol and we have VOAs to prove these changes.

[jrwilson]

Originally Posted by Marwil

In Canada I've been running Castrol Edge 5W-50 without any apparent issues. Just did a valve adjustment, no apparent wear on the cam lobes and no leaks from the engine case. The car regularly sees 6000 rpm.

You buy the 5L jugs of it as Crappy Tire - frequently on sale at about $40 Canuck bucks.

I thought synthetic was discouraged in these engines?

[cnavarro]

Originally Posted by jrwilson

I thought synthetic was discouraged in these engines?

If the engine hasn't been rebuilt or is leaking oil, switching to synthetic from a conventional might result in new or worsening leaks, but there isn't any other reason to keep anyone from running a synthetic in an aircooled engine.

The concern with most off the shelf oils is that they will be API SM or SP rated and will have insufficient levels of ZDDP for older engines like ours (and the original reason this thread was created many moons ago).

[winders]

Originally Posted by jrwilson

I thought synthetic was discouraged in these engines?

If anything, air-cooled engines need a synthetic more than a water-cooled engine does.

[David Inc.]

Originally Posted by winders

If anything, air-cooled engines need a synthetic more than a water-cooled engine does.

Isn't that because they resist thermal breakdown much better than conventionals, and head temperatures can be pretty high in the air-cooleds?

[winders]

Yep!

[Ian Comerford]

This may be controversial but there is a view that modern additive packs do a better job than zinc for classic engines. A recent discussion with the lead scientist in a UK oil company revealed that he had been asked to increase the zinc levels in their classic range ‘because that’s what the customers think they want”, but in his view this was reducing its capability as the modern pack does the job of protection better. But the customer is always right……..

[cnavarro]

Originally Posted by Ian Comerford

This may be controversial but there is a view that modern additive packs do a better job than zinc for classic engines. A recent discussion with the lead scientist in a UK oil company revealed that he had been asked to increase the zinc levels in their classic range ‘because that’s what the customers think they want”, but in his view this was reducing its capability as the modern pack does the job of protection better. But the customer is always right……..

Lest everyone forget the abundance of engine failures that occurred in the early 2000s when oils were reformulated to reduce the ZDDP.

"The introduction of ash-less and zinc free oils are on the horizon making choosing an oil that much more difficult for older engines."

The quote is from Shell regarding API SM oil standard & its development.

Even prior to the introduction of the API's SM and SN standards, there was concern that current API SL standards from back in 2003 may inhibit the backwards compatibility of motor oils, specifically referring to the limitation of ZDDP, which is "the most effective combined anti-wear and anti-oxidant additives currently available." SAE 2003-01-1957, Effect of Oil Drain Interval on Crankcase Lubricant Quality, Shell Global Solutions.

[Peter M]

Originally Posted by Ian Comerford

This may be controversial but there is a view that modern additive packs do a better job than zinc for classic engines…..

Ian,
I'm very sure that is the case. Just look at the dramatic reduction of ZDDP in diesel oils from API CI Plus to the current CK classification for example. They're had to replace the ZDDP with something else and from the test data I can find, those newer additive packages perform better.

Our problem is how do we identify those better performing anti-wear additive packages when commercially available oil analysis only identify the few traditional elements that have been used for decades.

Also the various current API and ACEA engine test requirements of modern oils don't really reflect the demands of our valve trains as engines now generally have lighter valves and roller followers. This further clouds the comparison of anti-wear packages.

We also occupy a tiny segment of the market since I can't think of a modern car that specifies viscosities we use. Consequently I can't imagine why they would bother modernising anti-wear packages for a market that isn't that sophisticated and that would be suspicious about anything different to the traditional approach.

Consequently I think we just have to accept that we don't have the data to aim for anything other than oils in the 15w-40/20w-50 range with around 1200ppm of ZDDP and just comfort ourselves that these oils have been proven to perform well in a Mezger engine. I certainly won't live long enough to have to rebuild mine again!

[Peter M]

Originally Posted by cnavarro

Many years ago I did tons of oil analysis and for most driving conditions those intervals gets you to about a 50% reduction of the initial TBN.

For most of us, our driving habits puts us in severe service which usually is somewhere between 3 months or 3,000 miles to 50% of the normal service interval recommended by the manufacturer.

Thanks for that background and detailing the assumptions behind your recommendation Charles.

[jrwilson]

So should I throw a bottle of ZDDP additive in there and call it good?

[cnavarro]

Originally Posted by jrwilson

So should I throw a bottle of ZDDP additive in there and call it good?

No. ZDDP additives should never be used. Use an oil that is correctly formulated from the start, otherwise you are doing a science experiment on your engine. Too much ZDDP can indeed be a bad thing.

[porschedude996]

Originally Posted by cnavarro

No. ZDDP additives should never be used. Use an oil that is correctly formulated from the start, otherwise you are doing a science experiment on your engine. Too much ZDDP can indeed be a bad thing.

Got it, never use a ZDDP additive. Understand the science experiments since data across the board is vague. What’s a fellow to do?

[tholyoak]

If you look around, there are plenty of appropriate oils in Canada you just can't get them at Canadian Tire.

If you want Driven DT50, you can get it from Performance Parts Canada in Brampton, Amsoil also makes a suitable oil in the form of the Zrod 20W50, for conventional oil, you can get Valvoline VR1 pretty much anywhere.

-Todd

Originally Posted by jrwilson

I always enjoy these threads because the Americans throw around all these brands and then I go to look for them in Canada and they're not available.

Can anyone recommend a brand I might be able to find here without having to ship it from Wisconsin?

[drtyler]

VOA for Driven DT50 in 2016:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/voa-joe-gibbs-driven-dt50-15w50.253635/

Viscosity at 100C is 15.79 cSt (50 grade should be 16.3 to 21.9 cSt).
Phosphorus = 980 ppm
Zinc = 1102 ppm

May be an old formula, but it's interesting that the tested viscosity is low, and that ZDDP isn't particularly high.

[cnavarro]

Originally Posted by drtyler

VOA for Driven DT50 in 2016:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/voa-joe-gibbs-driven-dt50-15w50.253635/

Viscosity at 100C is 15.79 cSt (50 grade should be 16.3 to 21.9 cSt).
Phosphorus = 980 ppm
Zinc = 1102 ppm

May be an old formula, but it's interesting that the tested viscosity is low, and that ZDDP isn't particularly high.

That's old data regardless as the that was a previous formulation. When the additive package from Lubrizol was discontinued they switched to an additive package from Afton.

I don't trust Blackstone's results or interpretation of the results. I've seen too many discrepancies.

Here's just one example where they said the oil had no moly which is off by hundreds of ppm.



Sample was used Driven DI40 from a local customer's car with all city driven miles with lots of short drives.

[cnavarro]

Here is a current VOA for DT50:

[drtyler]

That's great, thank you for sharing.

The new DT50 formula seems like an improvement from the older one.

Also, thanks for the comment about Blackstone. I have often wondered how accurate and consistent their testing is. I have never paid attention to their "comments".

[trentwat]

What’s the consensus on Motul Classic? Just had my motor rebuilt and I believe the mechanic uses it…