How much of an issue is chassis mileage?

[twobone]

I have my eye on a very nice 86' cab that has had an engine rebuild, but has 168K miles on the chassis. Assuming that the bushings have been replaced....does the chassis hold up to that kind of mileage? The car has been meticulously looked after.

It is a multi concours winner. He is asking about $18,500

Here is the link

www.geocities.com/nine11porsche/Photos.html

[hcoles]

unless the car has been hit or tracked a lot I don't see why the chassis metal would be loose or any different than new. Also, the corrosion protection should be good on that model. That's my 2 cents.. I guess we'll see what others say.

[Head416]

My chassis is approaching 300,000!

[azasadny]

If the suspension is good and there's no rust, what could be the problem with a high mileage chassis?

[911SCfanatic]

fatigue in highly stressed areas----->metal cracks and tears.
ask BMW owners.

[Rot 911]

Originally Posted by 911SCfanatic

fatigue in highly stressed areas----->metal cracks and tears.
ask BMW owners.

Yes, but we have not been hearing of that being a problem in high mileage 911's.

[the]

I don't think the chassis itself is going to have a problem at even 200K miles.

But there are lots and lots of parts that are attached to the chassis that can/do wear out from miles - lots of bushings, bearings, anything that moves, injection components, interior, etc. etc. etc. Even if the engine has been rebuilt and the chassis is fine, there are hundreds of other things that get worn out with miles.

168K isn't outrageous mileage, but it is a bit high for most buyers of mid 80s 911s, and definitely hurts the value.

You need to see the paperwork for the "full engine rebuild," is it a quality full rebuild by a reputable shop, and how many miles are on it now?

Those cheap wheels hurt the value, too.

I think he's going to have a hard time breaking $15K on it.

[twobone]

So upon further research:

Car was owned since new for 8 years (86-94) by our former PCA president. He DE'd the car quite a bit, but always did top quality maintance.

It then passe through several owners - the 2nd used it for concours, the 3rd is unknown and the current owner "babies the car" as a trailer queen and occassional run-about

All of the owners have taken very good care of the car. The current owner has had it serviced since 2002 by shop I use. The engine rebuild and transmission rebuild is probably 50-60,000 miles old, but done to very good spec.

So if the maintenance quality is there, the car is very clean, will I be shooting myself in 5-8 years when although the car will likely still look amazing, it will by then have 180,000+ miles and no one will be willing to pay more than $15,000 for it?


Is the marketability poor for a very clean well maintained but very high mileage car?

[old man neri]

Originally Posted by twobone

So upon further research:

Car was owned since new for 8 years (86-94) by our former PCA president. He DE'd the car quite a bit, but always did top quality maintance.

It then passe through several owners - the 2nd used it for concours, the 3rd is unknown and the current owner "babies the car" as a trailer queen and occassional run-about

All of the owners have taken very good care of the car. The current owner has had it serviced since 2002 by shop I use. The engine rebuild and transmission rebuild is probably 50-60,000 miles old, but done to very good spec.

So if the maintenance quality is there, the car is very clean, will I be shooting myself in 5-8 years when although the car will likely still look amazing, it will by then have 180,000+ miles and no one will be willing to pay more than $15,000 for it?


Is the marketability poor for a very clean well maintained but very high mileage car?

Define well maintained. One could easily argue that the fact that a previous owner never drove the car and babied it is not good for the car. Also, one might not like to purchase a high mileage car when the first owner 'tracked' it a lot.

You mention stuff like 'did top quality maintenance' and 'rebuild done to very good spec' What does that mean? What is a good spec and what is a bad spec? What is poor quality maintenance? Do you have written proof of this? It sounds like something that would come fropm of a used car salesman.

Also, if you are buying a car with a rebuild 60K ago, by the time you sell it it might be close to 100K ago which means it might be time for another rebuild. Who knows. I certainly don't.

What does 'very clean' mean? It was washed well? It has clean carpets? Someone steamed the engine?.




I am not trying to be a dick or be mean. I am merely trying to play the devil's advocate. The questions I asked are questions I would ask if I was interested in buying the car from you. These are most likely questions you might have to answer if you are going to try to sell the car in the future.

I am in no way trying to tell you this is a bad car or a good car for you. I don't know anything about it. However, resale value seems to be important to you and I just am trying to make you aware of questions you may have to answer if trying to sell the car for top dollar.


good luck in whatever decision you make.

[craigyirush]

Re high miles and re-sale value:

I paid $13,600 for an '86 Targa with 187K on it last year.

It checked out mechanically in the PPI (compression, etc). It was good cosmetically, and the body/chassis is fine.

I submitted the price/mileage to Bruce Anderson for the "Readers Sales Reports' in Excellence.

His comment was: 'big miles equals low bucks.'

[spuggy]

Chassis stress shouldn't be an issue in the later cars unless it was a full-on race car, as they are more heavily braced. (I recall reading somewhere that the longhood tubs with high output motors would visibly deform the cowl when exiting corners hard, and the factory recommended replacing the chassis after two seasons if used for racing.. Heh)

You're projecting 12,000 miles in 5-8 years and are worried about resale value? Buy something which already has a larger target market, or a smaller available pool or both - for when you come to sell it. Recent garage queen annual mileage would be more of a red flag (for me personally) than a high overall mileage - but both together wouldn't be a good thing. JMO.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

I've owned 2 very high mileage cars:

86 Coupe w/ stock suspension, 213K miles

84 Targa w/ 22/29's (typical DE suspension) w/ 245K miles

Never noticed any body fatigue with the coupe, but never expected to.

The Targa was different, and I expect Cabs to be the same. High mileage Targa's tend to crack at the very bottom of the A-pillar where it meets the rocker. This is exacerbated by a stiff suspension: Something has to flex with hard driving. if the torsion bars aren't, the body is.

I've seen several cabs where the door closes fairly well with nothing in the car. The minute you get in, the door latch is slight misaligned and troublesome.

I would pay careful attention to how the doors shut, their lines, etc. as well as closely inspecting the very forward portion of the rockers.

I'm a big believer in high mileage Carrera's myself. 3.2's will run strong well over 200K miles and replacements are cheap. If the car has been well cared for, check documentation, they are so simple that restoration and preventive maintenance isn't prohibitive.

Good luck!

[RWebb]

Don't worry about the mileage.

Get copies of all maint. records & have a thorough PPI done.

Also, somebody else might buy it before you do if you wait too long...

[Bobboloo]

The mileage wouldn't bother me but the car is way overpriced IMO for a car with that mileage and missing the Fuchs. I'd offer $12K and keep looking. There's no shortage of high mileage Carreras out there for sale.

Here an 86' Cab an with 7/8x16" Fuchs with 200k miles. Sold for $9500. It's no concours winner and not maintained to the level of the car you're looking at but it gives you an idea what the car your looking at has to compete with.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1986-911-cab_W0QQitemZ130153238751QQihZ003QQcategoryZ10156Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

The money always runs out before the good deals do.

[RWebb]

note: he is in Toronto -- not anwhere near LA

[MARTIN AIDE]

Hi Micheal,I met you a couple of years ago when I bought your rims.did you sell your SC?I just went through the very same thing 2 weeks ago when I bought an 87 cab with 208 on the clock.I got lucky in that it had 3 broken head studs so the fellow had to repair before he could sell so I got to see an open engine as well as clutch before I purchased,hows that for a ppi,anyway Ipaid 16000 which I thought was all the money considering the milage but I don't plan to sell anyway so it didn't bother me.otoh it's all relative anyway in that if you spend the dough on a lower milage car they will still go down in price when it comes time to sell but even a high miler would probably depriciate less because up here there is probably about a 12 to 14 grand basement price on these cars no matter the milage assuming decent condition,sorry for the ramble and I say go for as you won't regret it,Marty

[Jack Olsen]

Check around the side jacking points for cracks. Check the rear swaybar mounts, too.

[911vet]

Originally Posted by Shaun 84 Targa

I've seen several cabs where the door closes fairly well with nothing in the car. The minute you get in, the door latch is slight misaligned and troublesome.

I would pay careful attention to how the doors shut, their lines, etc. as well as closely inspecting the very forward portion of the rockers.

Do you think the cabs crack only under track-driving conditions?

I thought when I sold my BMW and bought a Porsche I put the cracking floor issue behind me! Not so?

I drive mine very "spiritedly" on curvy hill roads. It has stock suspension and a DAS bolt-in roll bar which certainly does stiffen up the body. I've been told on another thread that the roll bar is going to kill me if I wreck since my seat will break loose, my spine will impact the cross bar, and my back will break... of course it won't matter because my head will be split open upon impact with the top of the roll bar.

And then there's the post stating a pre-90's 911 is a deathtrap as a daily driver and should only be towed to and from the track.

Geez... come on guys, someone cheer me up!!

Shannon

[911vet]

Originally Posted by twobone

I have my eye on a very nice 86' cab that has had an engine rebuild, but has 168K miles on the chassis.

It is a multi concours winner. He is asking about $18,500

Here is the link

Just for reference, I bought an 87 Cabriolet with 113K miles a few weeks ago. Asking price was $17,900. I paid $16,899 (incl. dealer doc fees).

I had a PPI done and was satisfied with the results. Excellent compression test. Body and interior in above avg condition.

My car was a one-owner car! Yep, they had it for 20yrs. They put 100K miles on it the first 10 years, and 10K miles the second 10 years. It was stored for most of the second decade, sometimes getting less than 1000 miles a year. That was of concern, but I bought it anyway.

Only "dried up" issue I've come across so far (after 1 month and 1500 miles) is the shifter bushings and coupler need replaced. And the AC compression sometimes squeeks. The PPI mechanic warned me that would need replaced ($500) sometime down the road. They go bad if they aren't run on a regular basis.

You have to decide why you are buying. Is it an investment? Do you really care if you make money on it? Because, trust me, you won't! Not after all the money you put into it. You're gonna spend lots fixing all the little things that go wrong. At least that's been my experience with my older German cars (84 VW Cabriolet, 98 BMW Z3, and now the 87 911).

Sometimes the right car just comes along and you like it. Sometimes that's the only reason you need. Just don't pay so much that you've got nothing left to do the repairs with.

[450knotOffice]

The Targa and the Cab both share the same chassis. FWIW, A good friend of mine, Chris (posts here as 84Porsche), has an '84 Targa with well over 200K miles on it and his car is tight as a drum with no fatigue issues anywhere. My '84 Cab has 143K miles on it and also has no structural issues whatsoever (and I have much stiffer suspension than stock). The doors close perfectly with people in it or not. I've checked all of the typical areas where the chassis might show signs of fatigue and have found nothing at all.

Personally, I wouldn't worry about it unless you plan on tracking it extensively and have super sticky R-compound tires.

By the way, There's a guy here in California named Terry Zaccone (in the Bay area, I believe) who is the original owner of a 1968 Targa (same chassis as the Cab, remember) who has over 350,000 miles on it. The impressive thing, however, is that he's been autocrossing it for about as long as he's owned it and it has about 3000 timed runs on it's chassis. I'm guessing he has also used it at many DE's over the years too.




These are tough cars. I wouldn't worry too much about chassis integrity with that car, especially at less than half the mileage of Terry's 39 year old Targa.