How many out there spun your car not following the "no lift" rule?
 

I have heard about this and respect the rule as it makes sense. We all know these cars inspire confidence while cornering but I wonder how far do you have to push it to lose the back end or maybe if someone can describe the "no lift" more. It still must be the correct way to enter a corner, by loading the front tires with braking and then entering the turn? Is the no lift specifically in mid corner?
I have not felt the back end loose from being light on dry pavement but I have had the pleasure on wet autocross course.

I lost it on turn 2 (yeah, yeah... turn 2?) on Big Willow. Granted, I was playing around with throttle steering that whole session. BTW... it was the last session of the day and were only a couple other cars on the track.... keeping it relatively safe.

Anyway... I was doing about 80 when it got away from me. Tires were pretty slippery after nudging the tail out for that session AFTER running the full day on the track.

2 feet in and HOLD ON!

I think where most people get into trouble is freaking out mid-corner and completely lifting off the gas. A guy I work with wrapped a customer's 912 around a pole doing that. Oops.

I have on the track at Gingerman, turn three by the big tree. Pushing a little too much on anopen track day and oops, right backwards into the grass. No harm done and it was actually nice to get it out of the way. I don't drive fast enough on the street to do this.

So you think, once you do it you'll now know where that limit is?

That's the whole idea behind "more seat time". Unless you have Michael Schumacher genes in your blood, I don't think once is *quite* enough...

Hmmm... more like once you do it, you'll know what it feels like when it starts to let go. The limit is sort of dependent upon a lot of conditions. The more you drive, the more you'll "feel" the first stages of "the limit" in a variety of conditions (ex. tire wear and stickiness, track/road conditions, speed, arch of the turn, etc.)

You need to get on a skid pad and also do some AX. You don't want to feel the car come around on a high speed track with armco close by.
You should pick up Vic Elford's book on high performance driving. He explains things well about braking, cornering, weight transfer and everything you should know as basics for driving within your limit.

the best thing is until you figure out what that point is (through driver ed and autoX) only break in a straight line, and then get back to feathering the throttle. Eventually you will develop the necessary balance. In my experience there are too many variable to be able to describe and then have someone try to do it first time out. Good luck. You don't have to spin the car to find out what that point is.

There are stories of early 911 drivers trail braking late into corners - I read them to my kids at night sometimes. It starts with "Once apon a time..." and ends with "they all lived happily ever after".

I did it in my old beetle.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/lol2.gif

The "no-lift" is preached to beginer drivers while they learn car control. As you advance and become a better driver, there are some instances where a bit of "lift" can be helpful.

You can turn in, lift, rotate the car (slide the rear), and get back on the gas. You are steering the car with both the steering wheel, and gas pedal.

A wet skid pad is a great place to learn how to control lift throttle oversteer. Do it long enough and it becomes a subconcious part of your driving skill set. You will pull out this trick on certain corners. Other corners may take more traditional brake>turn>gas methods.

Again as a novice track driver you should follow the "no-lift" tenet

Wider tires and a l/s diff allows trail braking at rediculious limits. It doesn't however solve signifigant mid corner throttle lift.

Take your car to a Driver's clinic that uses a skid pad and you'll really learn your car's limits and handling tendencies and what it feels like to understeer and oversteer at will.

Using judicious bits of lift during cornering to transfer weight in the rear and tighten up your apex results in a driving experience more fun than a barrel of lesbians. However, I don't know any other way of learning this technique than completely losing the car at least once, either on purpose or by losing control of the car.

My first time was less than 20mph and after I'd had my first 911 just a few weeks. I was rounding a right hand turn late at night with zero traffic and hit a bit of black ice. The arse just came rotating around quick as you please, and when the dust cleared I was in the grass. My then-girlfriend and I just blinked at each other and got back on the road.

One time the car got away from me and the ass came around. This was in a more dire situation with a lot more traffic and a LOT more speed. The ass was coming around on my left - I steered left and floored it. 99% luck and 1% skill, I salvaged it and didn't kill anybody.

Prove it! Send me the barrel.

done it at autocrosses, more than once. never on the street, though.

IMO, the limit is quite high. if you are getting off-throttle oversteer on the street, you are driving way too fast.

Simply put, that's the bottom line.

I spun it on the Nurburgring a few weeks ago (God I enjoyed typing that!)

I was carrying too much speed round a fast corner and new a hairpin was coming up - I braked. By the time I knew I couldn't catch it I also knew I wasn't going to hit anything. Laughed my head of, switched the wipers off, and set off again. Had to calm myself down after a few minutes though.

The bottom line is I was going too fast. Even so I should have accelerated slightly and straighten the car before then braking.

It's good on the ring because there are so many corners you get used to braking before the bend and accelerating (just enough to balance the car) the whole of the way round (then flooring it as you see the exit) - you can feel the car settle into the corner, and just drifting slightly through the bend but because you're accelerating it feels very steady - beautifully balanced and controlled.

Had a great time learning more and more about the car and just starting to appreciate why they are so good.

Would I be able to avoid doing it again? Never say never, but it was certainly a help in recognising the signs. The bottom line as I say is that on that corner and on that line I was going too fast, and this time just braking was the wrong option.

Cheers

Mark

I've only spun a few times and its always been from getting on the gas too soon. Back end breaks loose and I go mowing the lawn...lucliky no walls involved to-date.