2nd Gear Is Gone -Some Questions

[roodog911]

When I bought my '84 Targa late last August it was a known fact that syncros wre a future issue,1st was weak and 2nd was questionable at best - the mechanic who performed my PPI said with careful shifting and double clutching I might get another 10k miles out of them.

Well slow, deliberate shifts and double clutching seemed the answer, for a while ... even the extra care and effort was leaving me with a car that popped out of gear, occaisionally ground some metal from the dog gears and, understandably made the car less fun to drive.

Having recovered from the flu, with dry roads and 40F temps I decided to drive my baby this morning, for the first time in about 6 weeks, to get my haircut.
I got a couple good 1st to 2nd shifts and things went downhill quickly ... eventually leaving me with no 2nd gear.

I had been saving to have the transmission work done by a reputible local Porsche shop and after speaking with him last week decided that some "while we're in there' or "while the motor and trans are out" extras would also be done, 15k service, and a new sound pad ... budget permitting.

My questions are these;

1. do you think there are a lot of small pieces floating around in the trans?

2. will I do further damage by driving the car to the mechanic, about 20miles, shifting from 1st to 3rd?

3. do I go with the guy that brought me to the dance? Pat did my PPI, is 100% Porsche oriented, a shop used by local racers, well known to, and used by several of my Porsche owning friends.
Or do I go with a german car shop closer to my home, who also is knowledgable and experinced in Porsches. Refered by my wife's boss (BMW).
Both are PCA and RMR members.

Thanks in advance for any and all input,
Willie

[dentist90]

Roodog,
Any pieces that came off your synchros (ie, dog teeth, thrust blocks) will settle to the bottom of your trans case and stick to the magnetic drain plug. You can drive it in carefully. If a piece got between the actual gears you would have known immediately.
If you can't get into 2nd at all now your problem sounds a lot like the one I had. I had found 3 dog teeth during it's first oil change. Shifting to 2nd was very balky and sometimes wouldn't go at all. Turns out there were actually 5 teeth broken off 2nd gear synchro hub and the band was popping out beyond the hub teeth (beyond spec diameter).


(The synchro band has been removed in this photo)

Anyway, be prepared to buy new 1st and 2nd hubs, slider and synchro rings at least. As far as who to go with, maybe start by getting a rough quote for what it sounds like the problem might be. Consider yourself lucky that you've got two choices. I live in a tiny town at least 6 hours from the nearest Porsche mechanic. I had to hire myself!
Best of luck to you.

[roodog911]

dentist90
Thanks for your follow up, the explanation of your past problem and the photo ... I guess that since there was no immediate issue with any other gears and the magnetic drain plug should gather up and hold any debris I can relax a bit.
Curiously enough, I had spoken with both shops during the past week to get an idea of potential cost, for budgeting purposes.
Both shops were fairly similar - planning on 1st gear sychro and slidder, 2nd gear synchro, slid
der and dog gear ... one in the $1,500 to $2,500 range for the transmission work with the 15k service, and sound pad adding another $5-800. The other shop ball parked a bit higher. Both covered the guesstimates with"depending on what we find once we're in there".
Which I find a totally reasonable caveat.
Now my issue is to figure out which shop I'll go with ... almost wish I hadn't spoken to both ... feel like I'll burn a bridge with the one who doesn't get the work.
I workedfor a U.S. firm that used to wholesale lumber from BC down into the north central U.S. about 20 years ago. BC is beautiful.

Thanks again for your input, it's much appreciated,

Willie

[Mr.Puff]

I also purchased an '84 Targa in August... Transmission problems. Creepy coincidence.

[roodog911]

Good evening Mr. Puff ... I was forewarned with the PPI - just had hopes it would give me more time to prepare for the inevitable.

Hope your's is not too serious !

[Matt Monson]

Roodog,
If you want a candid assessment of the two shops you are talking to, feel free to shoot me a PM. I am local here and gears,lsds, and transmissions are my business(And no, I am not trying to move in and put a 3rd bid into the mix. My post count is low and my join date so recent because I never wanted to mix business with pleasure. Grady finally browbeat me into joining because he said I knew stuff about gearboxes that I really should be sharing with the community, so I joined.). I have a pretty good guess who both of them are already, but want to be sure before I push you one way or the other with respect to who will arguably do better work or provide better service.

As was mentioned, you likely won't do too much extra damage by driving the car, but my attitude is why risk it? There could be more to break off or what has broken off may catch a bearing or another gear on it's way to the plug. If it were my car, I would pay the $125 in a tow to get it to the shop. That's way cheaper than a $300 bearing, or a $350 used mainshaft w/gear in the event that you do actually run a piece of schrapnel through between a gearset or pinch it on an op sleeve other than the one that is already toast. I see some pretty ugly damage done to these boxes from just a single dog tooth that broke off and made it's way through the system. Your $2000 rebuild can quickly become a $4000-5000 rebuild.

[PPilot]

The other option to consider is buying a good, verifiable, used low milage tranny and swap it in for a lot less....sell old tranny for parts or disassemble far enough to determine if worth rebuild with much more info to go on.

[Grady Clay]

roodog911 You have PM.

I will second what Matt said. Why risk having even a single dog or other debris go through the gears? A tow is much less risk.

That said, if you want a ‘today’ project, drain the transmission oil and inspect the magnet. You can remove the 4-bolt shift plate from the bottom of the transmission and gain access for further inspection. Regardless of what you find (or don’t), the 911 is just as happy on a flat-bed tow truck. Save everything that comes out for the shop.

If you are so inclined, this is also possible to DIY. Many Pelicans have ‘rebuilt’ their 915s with great success. Pat M. probably can get your ‘baby’ back to you in a week or few.


Matt, roodog; a bunch of us are having breakfast at 9 AM this morning at the Village Inn at S. Colorado Blvd. and E. Mexico (just NE of I-25 & Colo. Blvd in SE Denver). Everyone is welcome. Matt, I enjoyed lunch yesterday.

Best,
Grady

[911pcars]

Willie,
I hope you get back on the road soon. Best wishes.

The following is a general comment.

There's a relationship between this thread and the poll on Rennlist called, "How do YOU downshift (poll)?"

Check it out, then rethink the downshift procedure, not just on-track.

Sherwood

[roodog911]

Thanks Sherwood, just registered ... searched forums for "How do YOU downshift " and found several pages of threads ... you refered to a poll ... should I be searching a different area?

Willie

[911pcars]

Willie,
My browser doesn't show a thread code in the URL, but here's the path to the thread:

http://forums.rennlist.com/
Rennlist Forums > Performance & Competition > Racing > How do YOU downshift (poll)?

Hope this helps,
Sherwood

[roodog911]

Sherwood, just reading all the feed back and threads regarding downshifting - heel and toe would be new to me to some degree - I do break, depress the clutch and blip the throttle , drop a gear range - I just don't "roll from break to throttle" ... something to practice when I'm back on the road.

Willie

[911pcars]

Willie,
While in the minority of the poll, read the comments from those who advocate/describe double-clutching (aka "saving the synchros"). All other methods decrease the service life of synchros.

Sherwood

[MOMO3.2]

Matt:

I PM'd you with a transmission question/crisis I am having.

Mike
moyler@verizon.net