Time to play "Name that ignition problem"!

[BBShriver]

Ok,
I just got done replacing spark plugs and wires in my 73T with K-Jetronic/CIS.

Used Bosch Platinum plugs (WR5DP I think..), and Magnecore 8.5MM wires.

I tried to replace the points with a Pertronix, but the Pertronics I got is a mirror image of what I need as well the points I got as part of the Pelican tune-up kit were also, and my new rotor isn't right... so apparently I ordered the wrong parts for those things.
Anyway, I put back in my old points, and checked the gap to .012" per my Haynes manual for a Bosch distributor (which it is)..

Started the car, and it runs, but roughly, tach is all wonky and when I give it gas, it stumbles and acts like it's stalling...

Any ideas?? I'm guessing if anything I've got the point gap screwed up somehow, since the other parts were direct replacement..
I wouldn't think it would run at all if I got plug wires crossed or something, or wires not going to the right place?

Thanks!

[cgarr]

Make sure all the boots are tite on the plugs, I know some feel like they are on but not. Another note, I tried Platinum plugs in my 86 and took them right out, never ran good with them, don't know why but it didn't.

[BBShriver]

I'm going to double check the plug order, and will double check the tightness of the boot.
The plugs I put in are the same part number as what was removed so I'm fairly confident that the plugs themselves are not the problem.

[BBShriver]

Ok, double checked plug order,
Checked to be sure all boots were good and tight.
Rechecked point gap, pulled points out, cleaned them, put back in, re-gapped....
and now...
no start at all.
What gives??? I've never had a plug swap result in no-start??

[Brent Lineker]

Just re check your work,I have had the same problem in the past where I just had the wrong gap on my points,too wide no start and too close no high rpm.Make sure you have the right specs for gap,I don't have my book here at work but some models are gapped at .016 I believe.

[BBShriver]

Haynes says .012 for Bosch distributor, which is what I've set it to.
However, I don't have the greatest faith in Haynes manuals, so if someone gives me a different number, I can try.
One question, when setting the points, I believe you're supposed to be at the "high" point on the point cam... is there anyway to tell if you're exactly on that point, or just eyeball?

[Early_S_Man]

BB,

A couple of areas of concern ...

1. Check your point gap ... it should be 0.014" [factory service manual contains a rounding/truncation error = 0.013" point gap, only obtained by rounding/truncating 0.01377" incorrectly] or 0.35 mm

The 'regular' consumer Bosch platinums may be a problem ... I have never heard of anyone having good enough luck with them to be recommending their use on the board! Bosch 'Super' copper core, or NGK copper-core are the standard plug most on the board.

Used points are hard to set accurately with a feeler gauge due to pitting and transfer of point contact material to the opposing side, creating a sharp hill or bump of materail where it was flat from the factory. That is why dwell meters are used on points that have been in service for any length of time.

Do you have a Dwell/Tach gauge? If so, check the dwell ... as goofy, jumpy tach operation is a sign of a problems with the points.

What model Bosch distributor does your engine have installed? It should be 0.231.169.008. Can you post a picture, here, of your points as installed in the distributor?

If you do have a Dwell/Tach ... you need to run a profile of your distributor advance curve, as stalling/stumbling can be the result of a stuck mechanical advance mechanism.

Your stalling problem may be the plugs, but if it is the advance mechanism, or an idle speed problem, then you need to begin all over with the vacuum hose pulled off and plugged with a golf tee or round screwdriver.

Most of the data you need are from this thread, but I will post it here for easy reference:

distributor lube...

[BBShriver]

Thank you for the responses...
I will reset the gap to .014 if I get a chance, though it seems like points too close would not cause a non-start.

As for the plugs, they are exactly the same as the plugs I removed, and it was not running "poorly" before, so it doesn't seem like that would be the problem. I have used Bosch +4 in my other cars (1955 Jag, 1996 Jeep) and liked them, but could not find a part number for the 73 Porsche.

I ordered the Pelican "tune-up kit" for what I thought was my model, but the points I got were a mirror image of what I have. I also ordered the pertronix ignitor hoping to get rid of the points all together, but it too was a mirror image, and my new rotor also was not correct. So I'm also trying to identify how to order the correct parts, since apparently I got it wrong the first time.

Also, as stated above, I have progressed from running poorly, to no-start at all. Tomorrow I'm going to check for some simple stuff like seeing if I'm getting voltage to the distributor at all, double check all connections etc. It seems to be getting no spark. I have double checked the coil-to-distributor wire about a gazillion times so far.


Here are some pictures of the ignition components as installed..

[BBShriver]

JOY!!!!!
It runs.
As I mentioned before, I apparently ordered the wrong tune-up kit for the car, and the new points and rotor did not fit, however, the new cap fit, so I used it.... on a hunch I put the old cap back on, and viola!!! Runs great.
I still need to re-set the points to .014 @5degrees ptdc, but the 90% of just getting it started is done.

However, I still need help identifying my points/rotor/cap so that I can order the correct parts. Anybody have any hints based on the pictures?

The kit I ordered was
"RN-11T3BN
Maintenance Kit, 911T (1973 1/2), CIS; Note: kit includes platinum plugs"

http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/shopcart/911E/POR_911E_BASkit_pg1.htm#item0

Do I maybe need the kit for the 73 pre CIS??

The build date on the car is January 1973.

I have a ticket into Pelican as well, but figured I'd ask here too in case anyone answeres quicker.

[Steve@Rennsport]

I would SURELY lose that Wix oil filter before it ruins your day (and bank account).

Stick with the Mahle ones.

[BBShriver]

I think i've talked to you on account of that WIX before.
I have a Mahle filter ready to go on as soon as I get around to changing the oil.

That said, the local "Porsche guy" says he has been using Wix filters for years in his customer's cars and never seen a problem...

[BBShriver]

Still waiting for an ID on that distrubutor.

Thanks!

[Early_S_Man]

BB,

Since your car was a very early production example of the 2.4 CIS engine ... it used the same 169-series distributor as the '73 MFI 2.4 T engine, Bosch 0.231.169.008, which uses the early '901' pn points -- 901-602-960-00-M14. You need the 6500 rpm rev-limiting rotor pn 911-602-928-00-M14.

Later 2.4 CIS engines switched to the 184-series distributor that used the 'mirror-image' points!

Here is a thread you may want to familiarize yourself with ...

small copper wire in '73 bosch distributor

[BBShriver]

Thanks for the info, but the pn for the rotor you listed has a picture of the style rotor Pelican sent me with the kit that did not fit...
This is the one that fits my distributor..



What is that from?

[Early_S_Man]

BB,

I believe you are mistaken ... the angular orientation on the distributor camshaft which the rotor fits on is quite critical, and it doesn't self-align! You must have the rotor precisely in line with the notch in the camshaft for the rotor to fit down in the groove correctly. Look at the pic below ... it isn't intuitive where the outer electrode should be pointed when the groove in the camshaft and the tab on the underside of the rotor are aligned!

[BBShriver]

So you think the new cap and rotor I have are correct, and that the current cap and rotor are the incorrect parts??
I didn't even try to fit the new rotor, just looked at it and said "well this isn't right".

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by Early_S_Man

BB,

I believe you are mistaken ... the angular orientation on the distributor camshaft which the rotor fits on is quite critical, and it doesn't self-align! You must have the rotor precisely in line with the notch in the camshaft for the rotor to fit down in the groove correctly. Look at the pic below ... it isn't intuitive where the outer electrode should be pointed when the groove in the camshaft and the tab on the underside of the rotor are aligned!

FWIW, That looks like the Rotor for my 1973.5. My car is a later one so they should have changed over to the later model Dizzy.

[FenderBender]

Originally Posted by BBShriver

Thanks for the info, but the pn for the rotor you listed has a picture of the style rotor Pelican sent me with the kit that did not fit...
This is the one that fits my distributor..



What is that from?

That could be a VW rotor, one of my friends told me there were problems with the rev limiting rotor's back in the day and many racers would run the VW rotors and sacrifice rev limiting for reliability. I have run one in a 2.2 for testing purposes and they do work.

[BBShriver]

Ok, well dad installed the new "speed limiter" rotor and cap, and it's working fine (I'm back in college now so I'm 600mi away from the fun)
Wish i'd tried that.