Ignition Switch Replacement (Pretty Sure Anyway...)
 

So I have had the '84 Cab for 3 years / 31k miles now. From day one the ignition switch (mechanical and electrical) have been occasionally flukey - key doesn't want to turn sometimes, electrical part will occasionally not trip but on 2nd / 3rd attempt always does, etc.

So the other night I'm parked at work & it took about 5 minutes of turning the key to get the electrical side to work & start the car. I am fairly broke right now, especially with the holidays, etc. I am also in the process of selling my 2nd car before the snows hit, trying to pick up a $500 beater prior to snows falling, but we'll see - I may need to COUNT on the 911 for a month or so.

ASSUMING it's the electrical side of the ignition switch that's finally given up the ghost, do I...

1) Replace the electrical only;
2) Replace both at one time while it's got to come apart anyway;
3) Go used to save some coin;
4) Find the wires I need on the electrical side & splice in a simple toggle switch under the dash until spring

Ideally, I'd like to replace the entire setup, have re-keyed, etc. - This would definitely be a credit card situation.

I need to know the step-by-step on this too. Does the electrical side require the disassembly & removal of the entire mechanical side (like, new shear-bolts)?
Do I bother with re-keying or just add one to the keyring?

I have manual (rotary) locks, no (factory) alarm in the door.

If option #4 will suffice until I can do it right, can someone outline the wires I need?

I haven't checked the Bentley or 101 I have (also have the Up-Fixin series but haven't opened them up yet). If the process is well documented in one of those, please let me know. If I need to order the parts from Wayne, please let me know ASAP so I can get this in-hand quickly.

Thanks very much to all!

If on a budget, I'd go with "4". Then, after you have the coin, you can do the entire job the right way as opposed to the "cheap" way.

Temporary Ignition Switch........
 

Fred,

I've seen used ignition switches (electrical side) for sale at this board for $30 or less. New ignition switch from local auto stores (Pep Boys) costs between $8-$10. It's difficult and tedious to disconnect the electrical part under dashboard. Once it's disconnected, the next steps are simple. So whether you go for replacement or not, you still have to dismount the electrical tumbler under the dashboard. I can provide you wiring diagram for temporary ignition switch.

Speaking of broke and cheapo, look at the ignition switch with screw driver on it(very left side of pic). The front brace with holes was a old 'No Parking' traffic sign post.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1196437199.jpg
Tony

So Tony,

The factory-style Ign. Switch CAN be replaced in-car, under the dash? I'd searched prior to posting & saw some posts that indicated yes and some were no.

Wouldn't mind that electrical schematic / info. fhurderjr@cox.net will work. What kind of amperage draw are we talking about through that segment... ie, an aircraft-style switch w/ safety cover for... 15A? 30A? 40A? I have an NIB nitrous arming switch w/ cover kicking around the toolbox from days gone by, but I doubt it's rated for more than 15A. If I have to buy a replacement switch like that, a 40A for example will cost me more than half the electrical side factory switch, etc.

Thanks again all. Much appreciated!

There's been a number of threads about this recently. Must be the time of year...

I just went through this exact hell.

For the lock portion, soak the heck out of it with something that doesn't go sticky and contains solvent, and work the pins with the key in every possible direction for a good few minutes, repeat until bored. Do it again until the lock doesn't stick, feel "clicky" or "crunchy" or require excessive pressure to start turning. The solvent needs to wash out the old grease and gunge that's gumming up the pins and making them stick, and you need to free the pins.

I like silicon lube for this, and the biggest mistake I made was being half-hearted with it the first few times. Once I eventually hit the spot, the lock was great - and I haven't had to do it again for over a year... In fact, all my locks now work wonderfully...

If the idiot lights don't come on and the fuel pumps, CDI etc. don't run when you turn it to "Start", then that's definately the electrical portion of the switch, and it should be replaced.

You can test this easily by borrowing a switch, popping the harness off the old switch, connecting it in place and turning it with a screwdriver. Don't drive the car without unlocking the steering lock....

If everything looks "right" except that turning to "Start" does nothing, it could be more complicated. Ho ho ho.

I had that exact problem and thought replacing the switch had sorted my problem - until it returned as a "mostly-solid" problem 6 weeks later. And this time, using other ignition switches made no difference.

Replaced ground straps, re-made the solenoid connection etc - and that didn't get it either. Sometimes got a "click" from the solenoid, sometimes not. Oh, new lightweight starter 3,000 miles earlier. Fairly sure it wasn't that.

Eventually cleaned and spread the contacts on the 14-pin connector in the engine bay and the bulkhead plug where the ignition harness plugs in, and I haven't had a problem since. Which basically meant we touched, cleaned or replaced about every part, except the factory wiring harnesses.

On the up side, I think my battery gets a better charge now, though :)

You can replace simply the electrical portion of the switch, but it's a bear because of the limited access, and you'll never get the top screw out without the right tool. This is the only tool I own that will get anywhere close to the top screw, I bought it from Rat Shack years ago:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1196438445.jpg

Once the ignition harness is removed from the back of the switch, this will fit between the switch barrel and underside of the dash and get on the top screw. Just.

After loosening it with the rachet (edit: and you only have room to turn the wheel), you can wind the screw out with just the screwdriver bit between thumb and forefinger, which is easier/quicker than lining the whole tool up everytime it slips off - which it will. Expect this little exercise to take about an hour - for the top screw alone - if you've not done it before..

If I'd had an electric drill, pretty sure I'd have drilled out the shear bolts - it would have been way faster and less frustrating to remove the entire lock.

Good luck!

Edit: One thing - the later (PET lists them as 84 up) 964 ignition switches force you to switch to "Off", and turn through to "Start" again, whereas the 911 part # switches you can go from "Run" to "Start", back to "Run" and then to "Start" again as many times as you like. The 911 switches are twice the price, though :)

Yes, I get lights & key buzzer fine, no solenoid click or anything, just flat over to start & no-go.

Of course, this is the weekend that buddy #1 is coming over to have me help him replace his throttle position sensor in his SVT Contour (dude, it's onoly 2 screws...), and co-worker #2 who's just discovered his rear brakes are gone in his Audi TT is swinging down too. So much for time on my own car. At least they bring beer.

Thanks guys, the more info I have the better.

A More Logical Course Of Action........
 

Fred,

If I were you, I would do option #1. The time and effort you'll spend in making a temporary fix is not worth it. As you said, it will cost you half the cost of an OEM (used) part. The final decision is yours but take the logical course of action instead of thinking how to SAVE. Just my two-cents.

Tony

Two yellow wires out of the back of the switch harness. The fatter of the two should have 12V on it when you turn the switch to "Start".

If it doesn't, replace the switch.

If it does, you get to check the 12V makes it to the solenoid connector and play all the games with ground straps, plugs/connectors etc. until it finally works.

Oh, and just getting 12V to the solenoid doesn't mean it's getting enough current there to actually activate the solenoid. Mine would sometimes click and sometimes not. It was probably always getting 12V to the solenoid, only sometimes would it have enough current to make it click...

It's almost impossible to fix when it's an intermittant problem - it happened to me twice in 8,000 miles, both at inconvenient times/places.

Wasn't until the car was 100% not starting that you could troubleshoot and fix it. Even flat-bedded the car to my wrench after it failed to start for 3 days straight - it worked perfectly (1 failure to crank out of 50, so at least they knew I wasn't making it up) the instant it rolled off the truck, and 100% failed the next day on my driveway, whereupon I had to fix it.

I was pretty sure that there was nothing suspect under the car, as he'd replaced out the ground strap and re-made the solenoid connection.

So I dug out the Fluke, pulled the 14 pin connection, and tested. Didn't see 12V on the yellow. Pulled the ignition harness, plugged in another, with a spare switch. Started. Tried the switch in the original harness. Started. Tried the original switch with original harness. Started.

Cleaned and spread the connectors in the engine bay and the ignition harness, no issues since.

I had a problem with my ignition switch/lock once before, after I turned it off in front of a liquor store. When I got back in to leave, I could not turn the key, just like they do after a first try to start then having to go back to the OFF position before you can try it again. I would just not turn at all, just like the interlock acts after the first attempt. I guess something in the key safety interlock was either broken or stuck. This was before I carried a can of spray cleaner and spray type lube at all times in the trunk. There were no other type of stores in the area. I had already checked with the person at the store, that I knew quite well, and they didn't have anything like WD40 there. I had already screwed around with it for about 15 minutes when a lady pulled up to the liquor store, and had her mother and her two little boys in the car also. I noticed the boys playing with some squirt guns in the car, but they didn't have anything in them to actually squirt each other, but I got an idea, and I went in the store to ask the lady about here kids squirt guns. I wanted to buy one of them. I told her of my problem and she said that they had just been to a store to pick up party favors for her twins birthday party, and that she had bought a package of the small water squirt guns to give out to her boys friends at the party. I asked her if I could buy one of them from her, she said NO, she would give me one of them. She gave me a little red squirt gun. When the clerk at the store finished ringing up the ladies purchase, I told the clerk that I would be paying for her items, wasn't very much, about $10.00. She gave me the little red squirt gun, and I bought a bottle of EVERCLEAR. I filled up the squirt gun with it and used a large paper clip to hold the little door on the lock cyl. opened, and I held some paper towels all around the ignition switch cyl. and I began to spray the everclear into the keyhole. I was amazed at how much crap it flushed out. I would squirt a little, the try the key. I repeated this process 5 or 6 times. I finally got it where the run off was just about clean, and I kept wiggling the key and trying to turn. It got free again, and the lockout had reset itself, then the key worked like it should and I got it started. The first place I went to was a parts house and bought some spray cleaner and spray lube, to repeat the process of cleaning, then lubing the lock cylinder. Since that day, I have not had any issues like that again. It has now been about 5yrs and all is well. If you find that it is the ignition lock cylinder at fault, try to clean it out as mentioned before and lube it. Hopefully it is just some crap in the lock cylinder part that you can get cleaned out, and don't have to go through the PITA and expense of changing out the parts. Good luck, Tony.

I don't think anything short of replacing the electrical side of the switch will do because the contacts are going out, and when they do all sorts of things on the 911 will go screwy, including the ignition, fuel system, windows, radio, headlights, etc.

I'd look into a used electrical switch if funds are low. Ideally you want to get a new one because the job is a big pain in the butt. Some tips, learned the hard way:

(1) take out the drivers seat, and work with a good light facing up at the underside of the dash;
(2) carefully move all of the wires out of the way, and don't try to remove the hazzard switch. Those ears are brittle and will break;
(3) to remove the 2 shear off bolts, you can use either a bolt extractor (I recommend Craftsman), or you may use an air chisel, and hit the bolts at an angle to get them started. Then you can simply unscrew them with a pair of pliers;
(4) have a pair of replacement allen, cap, or shear bolts ready to reinstall the ignition switch;
(5) the little allen bolt that secures the steering wheel lock to the steering column is hard to reach. I used a little allen key that came with some Bombay furniture. It worked, and I was able to tighten it the rest of the way with a regular allen wrench. Don't leave out re-tightening this little bolt though, or your steering wheel lock may bind;
(6) the mechanical portion (key side) of the switch is very difficult to disassemble. I know some guys on this board have done it, but I took one look at it and decided it was too much work. I'd like to have replaced the little tumbler blades.

Good luck. I don't think you can use a simple toggle switch. The other electrics will stay off, and your car won't run. Even if you could, you'd want to buy a generic keyed switch anyway.

I found a new one on FleaBay for $42 shipped (electrical side only). Not OE, but budget-friendly.

I cleaned the lock fairly well tonight, using Berryman's B-12 followed by some spray silicone, on the key only, and worked it until the key kept coming out clean.

I was able to start the car maybe 1 in 25-50 rotations. The lights / everything else work fine when the key's turned over to run position.

follow the KISS model, Fred.

this happened to me - I was just about to drop several hundred on a new ignition, but when I crawled under the dash to look, I noticed that the screw was loose - it's tiny, and holds the back of the ignition to the inside of the dash. Half a turn with a screw driver, and it's worked perfectly ever since.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1196525876.jpg

Well, I'll be diving underneath tonight / tomorrow anyway - I started the car up nice & quickly this morning, no problem. Drove down the street to bring the Mrs. a cup of coffee before she went off to work, and the car wouldn't turn over at the coffeehaus. Whoops.

What a PITA to pop-start this car also - I never had to push the car so fast on my Taurii... :)

Got her home, and after doing the brakes on the co-worker's Audi TT & the buggered throttle position sensor on the buddy's SVT Contour, I needed to push the 911 into the bay... still no-fire.

So, I'll pull the front seat in prep, fiddle with the elec-side until the replacement comes in & get back to you guys next week after replacement.

+1 on cleaning the lock. I flushed mine and it improved the function 100%.

Update:
Yep, plan on at least an hour if you're trying to get to the top screw, removing the electrical side from under the dash. :)

Also mark the connectors on the firewall for when you remove them. I removed (3) connectors from the firewall, plus the pigtail next to the main switch connector, and the switch connector itself.

I used a small philips bit, with a 6.5mm short socket, and a 1/4" drive ratchet to remove the top screw.

I also cut a 15 1/2" x 17 1/2" piece of 5/8" plywood, with (4) drywall screws in it to set on top of the seat rail mounts. The screws hold the ply in place while you're squirming around, protecting the DME unit, etc., after removing the driver's seat.

I have the electrical part of the ignition switch out now, waiting for the new one to come in.

If it is the starter positon that is getting funky, and hosing down the key lock part doesn't help, and you find the electrical part is firmly screwed on, you might consider adding a push button starter control. You can purchase nice high capacity ones pretty easily (I spotted one in my local high end hardware store, and bought it) that have a black rubber cap over them. Mount it in the dash up toward the top between the left two gauges and you'll hardly notice it is there. You will still have your ignition switch to deter casual thievery, but when the key won't go all the way to the start position, or doesn't do anything when it gets there, push the button.

Not hard to set up. Just look at the wiring schematic and figure out suitable places to connect your push button switch in parallel with the wiring that goes from batter through starter switch to the starter.

That said, it is not all that hard to replace the electrical portion of things (though the top screw is tough to get at. And the "must return to off before turning all the way to start again" mechanism is inside the electrical portion, not the key portion, of things. The switches are not all that robust, however. The weak plastic part is connected to the thin pot metal part by some crimping. The wiring plug is tough to pry off of the electrical part, so there is a tendency to break the electrical part when doing so. Is a good idea to have a new electrical switch unit handy before starting down this road.

In my 1975 the "must turn to off before you can go to start" is in the Mechanical portion NOT the electrical portion. I took the whole thing apart last May and wrote it up, with pictures - no one cared - see what you think:

Ignition switch disassembly writeup

rekeying the tumbler as I went. No cash spent except for some TriFlow - an excellent lock lubricant. Working well to date.

Interesting, I missed your post - looks great, very thorough. When I thought I was going to re-key my replacement lock set, I was gonna use a VW guide I found on the web.

I have what I thought was an early lock assembly (bought a set, the glove box and trunk key covers have a chromed cover, my '77 doesn't have a lock on the trunk and the glove box one is black), and that has absolutely no lockout on the mechanical portion of the ignition lock whatsoever - moves completely freely from one end of the range to the other.

And I know the detent and lockout stuff happens with the later electrical portion, because the one I borrowed and was testing with a screwdriver did it :)

Like Spuggy, when our '84 wouldn't start (wife called from a parking lot, able to come to rescue and push start in the few feet available), I replaced the electrical part. It had a start block-out function, because I turned the piece with a screw driver before installing it. Then I pulled the failed one apart. Don't think I still have the pieces, but could see what had broken, and that there was a cam action lockout system in there.

I've replaced the electrical part on my '77 a couple of times (due to the part breaking when removing the wiring plug), and they worked that way also. A quick look suggests that the electrical switch part was the same from '74 through '84.

But Notmytarga's post is great. Maybe this feature is found in both places? Or got moved later, but an updated switch worked redundantly? Still, he has removed my fear of messing with the mechanical part. I rekeyed when I replaced door handles, so that part causes only minor trepidation. Pulling the whole assembly out, however, is not something I plan to do any time soon unless I can't get the key to give me the run position.

Walt Fricke

Pelican even list the 964 part for 74-89, whereas PET lists it from 84 up, and a 911 part for the period you quite. Both parts seem to be identical from a size/fitment perspective, and, if there's an electrical difference, it doesn't cause any problems on the '77...

My wrench said he'd replaced 911 ignition switches Back In The Day that had come fitted from the factory with a 928 part #. I just looked, and sure enough, Pelican lists the same 964 ignition switch for the 928 and the 944 as well.

The test switch I borrowed was from an '84 930 that was being re-keyed, and it had the Start lockout - just like the switch that was fitted to the '77 when I got it.

The switch from what I believe is an earlier lock has no Start lockout. I think this is the 911 part - which is available from the Porsche dealer for twice the price of the 964 part... No biggie, but I really prefer no Start lockout. Period-correct - and no, I'm not one of the toothbrush brigade.. :)

I bought the lock set because I believed that the mechanical portion of the ignition lock would fit too. Certainly looks very similar. I forget what the Ebay description said it was from - may have been a '74 - but I looked the part up and it seemed to be right...

FYI, confirmed electrical part was my key-binding; without the electrical switch, key rotates freely without binding in the lock. Still waiting on the part though. Guess that's the downside of Fleabay... can't specify need it overnight. :)

good luck with Evilbay. I hope you got the oem part because it's not fun to do that job twice.

Hear you there. I got a 964 PN, looks the same though. If it works the 1st turn (unlike what my old one was doing often), turning back to Off shouldn't be an issue, I guess.

I think I'll be copying some of that Yankee Ingenuity & JB Welding the philips bit on the screw. :)

I thought the piece was coming in via UPS (specified on their checkout), but arrived tonight via USPS.

84

You could put a dab of grease in the upper screw hole of the electrical part. Then put the top screw into it. Then put the switch into place. The grease should keep the screw from falling out. And since you will not yet have plugged the part with the wires on, you will have a bit more room to get the screw driver up there and engaged. Finding a Phillips screw of proper size in your junk box might help also.

Lower screw piece of cake.

Walt Fricke

I'm about to do this. Has anyone just left the top screw off, or do you think it would be secure enough with just the bottom screw? Would make for a much easier job if needed again.

I never put the top screw back. I had really intended to. But, well, I didn't...

The mechanical fit is plenty good enough to locate the switch in the lock, and the turning force is obviously in a different plane.

The single screw holds it in place just fine. Even taking the ignition harness off doesn't cause me any concerns.

Okie Dokie, the new electrical half's in, and no fire. The mechanical key part is smoother, but still wants to bind just a touch from off to turning clockwise - not bad though.

Sooooo, off to the other parts. Before I dive back under, where's the 14-pin connector you mention? Specific locations of the grounds to clean, etc?

Thanks all.

Hi Fred, the 14 pin connector is just about under where your coil sits. It will be just forward on the flat body panel, where the engine compartment fuses and relays are located. Good luck, Tony.

Disconnect the battery before opening the 14-pin connector.
Pry carefully with a small screwdriver.
Use dielectric grease on the pins.
I would check the connections on the starter Solenoid; the yellow wire coming from the ignition switch can get tired over the years.
There is a relay kit available to carry the load instead of the switch.
It mounts easily underneath next to the starter. The relay gets power from the main Terminal (Big Black and Red wire) The yellow wire goes to activate the relay instead of the Solenoid and then the relay powers the Solenoid. (Less load on the electrical portion of the ignition switch and the yellow wire)
It also helps to clean all connections to the Solenoid including all ground straps.
Have you ever cleaned the area on the body where the negative cable from the battery connects?
It's well hidden and usually neglected. Open the bolt holding the cables to the body, clean everything and reconnect with dielectric grease.
Good luck. :)

Ok, got the connector. What a tough setup to work with. 1st time working with that kind of connector... reminds me of the build-it-yourself kits from when I was a kid! I had been looking at the block of 3 mini-connectors wondering if that was where you guys meant. I'd pulled the cover off the fuse block, but didn't see the 14-pin connector attached in there. On mine, it's REARWARD (back of car, not "back" of engine bay / firewall) of the coil / fuel filter, under the fuse block cover. There are also 2 unused connectors that were under there, and a round relay style connector with nothing in it. Anything I need to worry about, not being used?

Anyway, there was actually very little oxidation on the 14 pin connector, but I went through & hit the pins & receptacles anyway - no difference. I ended up removing the entire bracket / fuse mini-block as a unit, including the 12 pin connector / relay-looking unit as well to make room to work in there.

Confirmed with the Mrs. turning the key, I have no solenoid click at the starter still.

Any other thoughts before I get frustrated & hand it off to the mech? Right now I can play with it, haven't sold the 2nd car yet, but have been showing it so that might change.

Do you have to remove the halfshaft to replace the starter? I'm not saying that's what it is, just thinking down the line.


Edit:
Gunter, thanks for the extra info, missed it as I was posting.
Normally on other cars I've had, if the Neg / Batt. cable is shorting / bad, I would hear an audible pop & would have to wiggle the connection to the cable to make contact again, to get system-wide lights, etc. - is this not so with the 911?

I'll dive back under for the starter / relay connections & check those also.

Ground straps - tranny and battery. And clean where they fit.

Check the solenoid gets 12V when you turn the key to start (although it's hard to test it's getting adequate current).

It could still be the starter solenoid. They do die, when they get tired.

With a 1500-mile old lightweight starter on mine, I was pretty sure that wasn't my problem.

But you might want to switch your ignition to Run and then switch a good, fat, 12V supply (i.e. from another battery) directly to the solenoid just to be sure..

I did all of the above on mine - and they're the most usual problems - but I'm convinced it was my 4-way plug from the ignition switch harness through the bulkhead that was the culprit for me.

I had 100% no-start, popped the 14 pin off to test for 12V to the starter harness (having already remade that connector and the tranny ground strap a few days before), and, on a wild hair, plugged in a spare ignition harness and another switch. Broooom.

Plugged back in the original switch and it worked fine as well.

On the basis that I'd only touched two things since I'd gone from 100% no-start to a reliable start, I cleaned the 14 pin connector on the relay panel in the engine bay (sockets and pins) with fine abrasive paper and a fiberglass pen, and then spread the pins for a better contact, and did the same to the rubber ignition plug into the bulkhead.

Haven't had a problem since - touch wood... My wrench couldn't believe it.

Good luck!

spuggy:
Quote: "I did all of the above on mine - and they're the most usual problems - but I'm convinced it was my 4-way plug from the ignition switch harness through the bulkhead that was the culprit for me. "

Please, describe where this 4-way plug is located.

Thanks.

You can feel the ignition wire bundle, and trace it to the bulkhead fitting. On a left hand drive car, it is on the dash board bulkhead, just a little to the left of where the ignition switch is located. This is really hard to describe, but when you see it or feel it the first time, you will then be able to just push in on the connector to make sure it is still tight, when you can't start the car. You can also see it on the bulkhead, if you get a flashlight and get your body where you can see up behind the knee bar pad, just behind the ignition switch area. Hopefully I made it fairly clear. Good luck!!

Yup, what 3.2 CAB said. The round wiring block that plugs onto the back of the ignition switch, ends in a little rubber moulded plug and also has a few flying wires (that go to the headlight switch, I think?).

There's a line of these rubber plugs directly under the steering column (LHD), both the column stalks (hi/lo and flasher) have the same plugs.

Because they have a hard ring (keyed) that fits into a seal around the socket, they can be firm when plugged back into the bulkhead socket - and the resistance you feel can be from that (weathersealing?), rather than from the electrical connection itself.

When I had the no-start problem, my wrench told me to check that this was tight. And it sure seemed to be.

I think that where ever my problem actually was, it was passing 12V, just not very much of it. Which made testing with a multimeter set to voltage futile. My solenoid would usually not click at first, but would sometimes start to click after you'd tried a few times... Gosh, I'm glad that appears to be over.

Fred

Hope you got it sorted out yesterday. But if not:

Looks like you are narrowing down to a solenoid issue. If you trace the voltage all the way to the starter's solenoid connector, chances are good that all the connections along the way are OK. Not 100%, as they might not pass enough current for the solenoid to work. But a first start. So, if the connection at the solenoid shows 12V with the starter switch in the start position, but not when it is not, time for the in-car solenoid test.

Which is to jumper from the big battery cable attached there - a pretty reliable source of amperage - to the solenoid connection on the starter. Which is where the smaller wire, all by itself, attaches. It is the one you traced back from the switch to the 14 pin connector, which is what gets it to the engine and then on to the starter. At the starter it is apt to be bundled with a larger red wire (the alternator wire), which attaches to the big battery cable connector but heads in the opposite direction.

If jumpering (carefully, but you don't need the ignition key on, and are better off without it being on) doesn't cause the starter to turn the engine, and if the transmission ground is working at all well, it is time to pull the starter. This is basically what you'd do with the starter out of the car - use jumper cables or something similarly stout, hook up the starter to a battery, and jumper over to the solenoid. A shop could do something fancier (checking resistance, current draw, stuff like that), but this is a pretty decent go/no go test.

If the starter doesn't do anything, your next move is clearer.

Removal of the starter is not a lot of fun, but - like the ignition switch - it's more awkward than anything else. Dirtier, too. You don't need to remove the half-shaft. I bet the archives are full of discussion about how to pull a starter, so you might want to search. I bet someone took pictures and did a step by step with wrench sizes and all. Lots of us have had to do that job.

The big wires are held on with a 13mm nut, so that comes off (surely you didn't need Dr. Gunter's admonition about unhooking the cable at the battery for this). Then you have two nuts on 10mm studs. The lower one stares you in the face. That stud attaches to the transmission case. The tricky one is on top, and also serves to hold engine to tranny (not to worry, there are 4 such attachments, and three do a fine job by themselves when you aren't driving it). The factory setup uses a barrel nut up top, so you need a metric hex bit for your socket wrench set. (Me, I use a regular 15mm wrench nut). If you lie under the engine, head to the front and nose about at the tranny drain plug, you can reach your right hand up over the tranny and reach this nut. You can also manipulate your socket wrench (with extension) with your left. The right hand can guide the hex into the nut. Think of it as hugging your transmission.

Easier on the back than pretzeling under the dashboard.

I've never futzed with the solenoid itself. My 1977 starter continues to run fine, and on the track car I use one of the light weight geared starters. With the starter out you could bypass the solenoid to see if it is a starter issue only.

In fact (looking at a manual), you could do this with the starter in the car. The solenoid has two studs sticking out of it's front end. One has the big wires from the car on it. The other has a wire that goes directly to the starter. If you short (jumper) these two terminals (with battery connected), the starter should whirrrrrr . It may not turn the engine, because part of what the solenoid does (I think) is to push the starter pinion gear out so it engages the flywheel ring gear. And it has to do this before the starter starts to turn, so you don't have a moving little gear trying to engage a stopped gear. But no matter - if you get the whirrrr, the starter itself may be OK, but the solenoid isn't working.

However, I'm pretty sure that you won't be able to remove only the solenoid with the starter in the car, so this is kind of academic.

Walt Fricke

Fred, more info;
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/382560-question-cylinder-head-temp-sensor.html?highlight=YELLOW+WIRE

Well, that'll teach me to assume... :)


It's NOT the ignition switch. It's NOT the starter. Both have been replaced.
I'd like to be doing more electrical testing & resolve this myself (with y'all's help of course), but I'm without a vehicle now since something in the clutch (feels like pressure plate fingers) has gone on my 2nd / winter car.

So I'm likely to jump / pop her & head down to the local guy. Thought I'd say thanks & if something changes & I'm able to keep messing with it, I'll be back in the thread.

Battery ground is fine. Trans ground is intact, but feels VERY flexible. Not sure how rigid it's supposed to be. The strap has some corrosion / oxidation (green showing in the "threads", but the ends are clean.

One thing I noticed as I threw my hands up for the night... the (3) front firewall connectors... the right-most one (which ties into the ign switch IIRC) will rotate by hand. The other two are more in-place. Thought I'd mention.

Fred

If I recall, you traced 12V power all the way back at least to the 14 pin connector. When the key was turned to start, 12V appeared back there. Chances are reasonable that also appeared at the starter solenoid relay.

And you say the starter is good.

So is the starter getting power from the big battery cable? I have heard of that cable not making contact in the lug that attaches to the battery positive terminal. Rare, but perhaps possible due to corrosion over time or whatnot. Easy to check - you shove a knife in so it makes contact with the wires and the lug and have someone turn the key to start. I suppose the same could be true back where the ring connector crimps onto the big cable at the starter post attachment.

A long shot. Oh - are you sure your battery is more or less full of juice? At least 12V, maybe put it on the charger for a while for good measure? When you get in the car and turn the key to ON, does the red alternator light come on? (it should).

The tranny ground strap is supposed to be pretty flexible. As long as the parts that contact other parts are clean on it (and on the tranny and chassis), all should be well.

The round multi-pin rubber covered firewall connectors can rotate - they just fit into a round hole as I recall. The rubber connector parts are, however, keyed so they will only go in one way.

It is possible to hook these up wrong - at least two of them will interchange connectors. Which bolixes things up. Don't ask how I know. But that can't be your problem - no reason for you to have pulled them all out at once, if at all.

Quite a puzzle. Sorry you couldn't get it working.

Walt Fricke

Okie Dokie, a buddy of mine came down tonight & stuffed me back under the car. Here's what we have.

1) We originally got .093V at the yellow solenoid wire on key-to-start, prior to the futzing around. We got the same number (basically) at the 14-pin connector in the engine bay. So, we deduced it's up front somewhere.

2) Testing the wires, trying to pull the connector down off the electrical ignition switch a little to probe wires (#50, etc.), Gary broke the new switch setup - the connector stuck to the pins, and pulled the innards right out leaving the outer housing still on the mechanical switch half. Since the key was on at that instant, guess what, the car started on us.

3) Pulled the neg cable, then the coil wire to stop it. :)

4) Pulled the rest apart so the mechanical part was clear (without any of the electrical switch), and put the old original switch on the connector on the wiring harness. 1x philips screwdriver later, vroom, start / stop on demand.

5) Put the electrical part back on the mechanical switch half, and back to original problem. Remove the electrical half, works great 100% of the time.

6) We think the mechanical part of the switch isn't rotating enough physically to engage the starter. Rotating the switch 90 degrees will allow the movement to make the key work, but then you're obviously on "on" then.

So that's where I am, partway there.

Has anyone dealt with the mechanical side of the keylock / ignition like this? Is this something I'm missing? I really need to know if this is likely a mechanical keylock issue before dropping the coin on it. I didn't see anything indicating this, but might it be a bad connection from when the harness is bent out of shape when mounting the switch under the dash?

On the plus side, I now have a lighter weight starter... :D

Fred,
Thanks for the call today... so Mark came over w/ a charger and we hooked it up on 10a charge for 10/15 min. looks like it took somewhat of a charge, gave the key a twist and she started w/ a slight pause at the key.

I discounted the battery because it was new this March replacing a new battery from 2 years ago. Bought a trickle charger at Lowe's 22 bucks, she's plugged in, I'll know more in the morning.

I corrected the battery drain issue, with the drivers side dome light switch that was not working right and kept the power window relay energized. The passenger side switch didn't seem to have a problem back then, I'll check it out tomorrow.

See ya

Bob