87 911 with 252k on the odo... bad idea?

[Tishabet]

Hi guys,

This is my first post on the air cooled side of the fence, so take it easy on me

I'm in the market for a 911. VIrtually all of the cars I have considered are 911SCs, but while browsing some listing I came across this car for sale:

http://www.cannillomotorsports.com/inventory/r87911/r87911.htm

It's an 87 with the g-50 transmission, and it apparently has a fresh overhaul of the engine... which is a good thing because the chassis has 252k on it!

So here's the thing... my biggest fear about getting into 911 territory is the cost of an engine rebuild, so for that reason this car with a recently rebuilt engine is quite interesting. I guess my question is, are there any issues/red flags with getting into a car with this mileage? Would you?

Any advice or feedback would be appreciated. Thanks!

[the]

Here are the biggest factors, in order:

1. How much are they asking? If it is $5,000, that's a great deal. If it is $25,000, that's a bad deal.

2. Is there full documentation on the rebuild? If so, what does it say? (Is it a full, proper rebuild by a reputable shop?)

3. What else has been replaced, what is the overall condition of the car? Are there records for the replacements? At 252K, potentially every part on the car is very worn!

You have to remember that the car is going to have very limited resale value, as most people looking for a Carrera are not going to be interested in a car with that many miles (too many with much less on them available). That may or may not matter to you, depending on what you intend for the car.

[Tishabet]

Originally Posted by the

Here are the biggest factors, in order:
1. How much are they asking? If it is $5,000, that's a great deal. If it is $25,000, that's a bad deal.

Asking price is 16k

Originally Posted by the

2. Is there full documentation on the rebuild? If so, what does it say? (Is it a full, proper rebuild by a reputable shop?)

The rebuild was done by "Bodymotion" in NJ... image of the receipt is on the linked page, but frankly I'm new enough to the 911 that I don't think I can judge whether a rebuild was "proper."

Originally Posted by the

3. What else has been replaced, what is the overall condition of the car? Are there records for the replacements? At 252K, potentially every part on the car is very worn!

The engine is the only "replacement" listed in the description... car looks top be in pretty good shape paint/gap wise and the interior actually looks pretty good to me... driver's seat appears to have been reupholstered.

Originally Posted by the

You have to remember that the car is going to have very limited resale value, as most people looking for a Carrera are not going to be interested in a car with that many miles (too many with much less on them available). That may or may not matter to you, depending on what you intend for the car.

I'm looking for a daily driver (including winter commuting) to replace my 89 944... I figure the difference in depreciation between a 911 with 252k and a 911 with 300k is negligible (right?) so if the price is good and reflects the high mileage, I figure I should be OK.

[ZOA NOM]

I just spent $3100 on a rebuild for my G50 LSD tranny in the race car. It had about 170k on it. It has been a track car since 2003, so I imagine the greatest wear came since then, but the synchros were toast. It locked into 3rd gear at 100mph on the front straight at Sears Point, and never came out. Having the motor rebuilt is less intimidating to me than dealing with a worn tranny. I rebuilt my track car's 3.2 motor myself, and was absolutely amazed at the lack of wear when I opened the case. My daily driver is at 208k now, and tight as a drum.

In any event, a thorough PPI will tell you a lot about this car. I would pay close attention to the drivetrain and suspension components.

[the]

I took a quick look at the engine rebuild invoice, so I may have missed something, but it looks like they paid $20K, had it rebuilt to a 3.4 with new pistons and cylinders ($4K for the new pistons and cylinders alone), did a top end on it, but didn't do the bottom end??

I didn't see anything on the invoice for regrinding the crank, new bottom end bearings, etc etc.

If that's true, it seems odd to go that far and spend that much, but not do a complete rebuild.

[ZOA NOM]

If they rebuilt it to 3.4 and didn't put in ARP rod bolts, I would pass if I were you. The 3.2 rod bolts are a potential problem with these motors, since they were reduced in size to 9mm from the 10mm size that came in the 3.0. As I said before, I was amazed at the lack of wear inside my 3.2 case, the crank and bearings showed virtually none, and it seemed to be a waste of time opening it up, except for replacing the rod bolts for racing purposes. I could have changed the rod bolts without opening the case, but I wanted to go the whole way.

[Rich76_911s]

The engine has been converted to a 3.4L according to those receipts. With Mahle p's and C's. Which is good. Can you have them email you a better copy of the reciept? It is really hard to read.

Get a thorough PPI done, and have the body checked over pretty well. East coast cars even post galvanizing can and do rust. And have them check for accident damage. Anything that spends enough time going through round-abouts in Jersey is certain to have a love tap or two. Have a compression leakdown done on the engine. The valve guides were replaced during the rebuild which is nice.


Rich

Hey I just noticed that they mentioned changing the rod bolts at the very end of the receipt. Also replaced headstuds with raceware headstuds. Micro-polished the journals. And did a complete lower engine overhaul. We definetly need clearer images of those reciepts. But knowing what I know, which can be argued isn't much, it seems like this was a really well done engine rebuild.

[Rich76_911s]

One other thing I noticed is that each sheet of the receipt says:
ESTIMATE * * * ESTIMATE * * * ESTIMATE

And only once circled and hand written do you see paid in full. On top of that the seller specifically asks you not to bother the previous owner or the engine rebuilder. I would sure want to talk to the shop that did the rebuild to make sure all this stuff was done.

[Tishabet]

Originally Posted by Rich76_911s

One other thing I noticed is that each sheet of the receipt says:
ESTIMATE * * * ESTIMATE * * * ESTIMATE

And only once circled and hand written do you see paid in full. On top of that the seller specifically asks you not to bother the previous owner or the engine rebuilder. I would sure want to talk to the shop that did the rebuild to make sure all this stuff was done.

That is an excellent point.

Just to be clear, I wouldn't consider buying this or any other P-car without a PPI... the ARP rod bolts are also an interesting factor.

Is there any good way to determine the condition of a g-50 without tearing it down? I.e. you can generally get a good feeling for an engine from its compression and leakdown; is there a similar manner of getting a warm fuzzy from a trans?

[old man neri]

Something else I noticed. On the 'estimate' it shows the mileage at 252K. That was back in Jan 05. It's now Dec 07 and it has the same mileage.......? Who dumps 25K into a rebuild and then doesn't drive the car for 2 years? Weird.

On the 'estimate' it also says "engine has previously been apart, problems with that repair" "Fuel like twisted" "rocker arms not correctly positioned" "due to above damage to chain housings, chains, and metal in engine, oil leak at both ends of crankshaft, old style oil pressure relieve valves, unknown bearing condition consider: complete lower engine overhaul"

Sounds like something bad happened to that engine and someone did a bad job in the past.

On top of that...sure, it may have a fresh rebuild but there are a lot of other things to consider. If the suspension is shot all around that can start to get pricey too, as well rust can become an issue. 250K is a tired car if it has not been well maintained. In my mind for a 2-3K more you could probably get a similar car with a top end job and about 150K less. I did.

[mkaraoglan]

i concur with other points about the "invoice" actually being an estimate adn the car having the same mileage 2 years later. it's almost like the PO choked on the cost and sat the car in his garage until he unloaded it to them for peanuts.
what shop wouldn't talk about a repair they did especially if it's their reputation and work in question.
unless i had proof of work done i would run....run fast!

my .02 cents

[the]

too much weirdness, price isn't awesome, move on.

[Palum6o]

Its weird how they would say not to contact at least the mechanic who did the rebuild. I learned a lot about my car and its history when speaking to the dedicated mechanic who worked on my car and he seemed more than willing to tell me everything about it. You can alos piece the mileage together by looking at the former receipts, that date could have been a misprint?? Its also way to easy to simply unplug the speedo on these cars. They should have a stack of receipts they can share with you - why not, they probably asked for it when they bought it to flip.

[Tishabet]

Originally Posted by the

too much weirdness, price isn't awesome, move on.

I'm going to take that advice.

Thanks for all of the feedback guys!

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Doesn't look like a terrible deal, but there are probably better ones out there.

[JeremyD]

Originally Posted by Palumbo

Its weird how they would say not to contact at least the mechanic who did the rebuild. I learned a lot about my car and its history when speaking to the dedicated mechanic who worked on my car and he seemed more than willing to tell me everything about it. You can alos piece the mileage together by looking at the former receipts, that date could have been a misprint?? Its also way to easy to simply unplug the speedo on these cars. They should have a stack of receipts they can share with you - why not, they probably asked for it when they bought it to flip.

+1 - and I can first hand recommend a carrera with a 3.4... fun fun fun