Can an Ironhead love a 997

[jacksd3]

I'm a diehard air cooled 911 fan. I've been considering the purchase of a 997 to go along side my 911 C2 Turbo. The 997's are awesome cars but I just can't bring myself to buy a car that has PSM, PASM, ABD, and electric assisted steering.

Can anyone help me here!

[speeder]

Welcome to the world of modern cars. If you want one w/o all of the latest electronic safety features, you need to look at Daiwoos or whatever the current $8.00 new car is. Anything German, or even European is out of the question.

Have you driven a 997? They're beautiful cars and the performance is light-years ahead of any older, air-cooled 911. You could disconnect a plug wire and let half the air out of the tires and it would still beat an older 911 around a track w/ equal drivers. They are also heavier and safer than older cars, you need to actually drive one for a stretch and decide for yourself if you like it or not. They're ridiculously fast, especially the "S".

[911nut]

Originally Posted by speeder

Have you driven a 997? They're beautiful cars and the performance is light-years ahead of any older, air-cooled 911.

+1

Don't let all the negative talk on the board dissuade you from buying a 997. They are seriously fast and much easier to live with than the older 911s.

[jacksd3]

Logically, I agree. Emotionally, it's just hard to get my arms around. I'm working on it. I don't see how I can learn to love PASM.

[mkossler]

It's not that the 997 isn't a spectacular car, it is; but the driving experience is so completely different in every way I don't think a comparison is really apropos. I'd enjoy both for their individual qualities and strengths.

[petevb]

For the OP: 996 GT3. Or stretch to a 997 GT3 at some point if you can't get past the 996 looks. You won't be disappointed.

For speeder:

Originally Posted by speeder

Have you driven a 997? They're beautiful cars and the performance is light-years ahead of any older, air-cooled 911. You could disconnect a plug wire and let half the air out of the tires and it would still beat an older 911 around a track w/ equal drivers.

That's going too far.

Is the 997 much easier to drive fast? Yes.
Much better behaved, comfortable, livable? Yes.
Faster than any stock older air cooled car? Yes, even when you include the turbos.

Is a 997 faster on the track than any early car with an equal (very good) driver behind the wheel? No way- not even close.

Understand there are modified early cars, some with full interior, etc, that will beat 997 GT3 cup cars around a track. Those cars run away and hide from a regular 997. Even a modified 997 street car can be beaten by many modified early cars in terms of raw lap times...

Of course the OP didn't mention didn't even mention the track. For a street driver along side an earlier car I'll bet the 997 would be good fun and do nicely.

[signature65]

I went out this last weekend and test drove 2 997's , a carrera and an "S". They are amazing cars and yes fast as all get up.

I was worried about the Porsche "Soul" feel like most of us here who love and adore our air cooled siblings. The drive was awesome....but it wasnt untill the salesman backed it into its spot on the lot that that VERY DISTINCT Porsche exhaust sound made me fall in love. Its still very Porsche....now if I can get that burnt oil smell air freshner I will be set!!!!

[mkossler]

This will get me in trouble, but the 997 for me has become a true Grand Touring car. Can it perform? You don't me to comment on that - the numbers speak for themselves. Does it have the same visceral feel that you are mechanically connected to the road? Maybe for some, but it's night and day in my opinion as compared to the classic air-cooled 911.

Well... in for a penny, in for a pound - I would venture to say from a "connected" and "tossable feel" perspective, that the Cayman driving experience is more of a spiritual successor to the old 911 than the 997 is (and please don't bring up the performance and handling differences of the cars due to the engine placement and weight distribution, thanks).

[jacksd3]

Originally Posted by mkossler

This will get me in trouble, but the 997 for me has become a true Grand Touring car.

A blasphemer! Someone get the torches and the rope

[450knotOffice]

Originally Posted by jacksd3

I'm a diehard air cooled 911 fan. I've been considering the purchase of a 997 to go along side my 911 C2 Turbo. The 997's are awesome cars but I just can't bring myself to buy a car that has PSM, PASM, ABD, and electric assisted steering.

Can anyone help me here!

The fact that you are even considering a 997 indicates that you don't completely buy into the idea that the water cooled cars are not real Porsches. I can tell you that they are. I currently have a lightly modded '84 Carrera, a 2000 996, and a '07 Cayman. I love them all and can tell you that the water cooled cars still have the unique "feel" of a rear-engined car; you can still certainly feel that the mass of the car is behind the rear wheels and can use it to great effect. The water cooled cars still have incredible steering feel, if not quite up to the unassisted feel of the old cars (what assisted car ever will?). They have amazing torque and power that just seems to go on and on, with redlines that exceed 7,000 RPM.

My advice is to drive one and then decide. Drive it hard (without abusing it, of course). Redline it in the first two or three gears if possible. Get on the brakes hard - up to the ABS if possible. You will feel the real Porsche character come alive in these cars. Trust me.

Let us know.

[mkossler]

Scott,

What a great response! You sum up so well the essence that a Porsche brings to the driver.

That being said, I can't help but note how as you suggested, one must drive the modern Porsche at or near the limit to find the essence that was there all the time in the older 911.

[speeder]

Originally Posted by petevb

For the OP: 996 GT3. Or stretch to a 997 GT3 at some point if you can't get past the 996 looks. You won't be disappointed.

For speeder:


That's going too far.

Is the 997 much easier to drive fast? Yes.
Much better behaved, comfortable, livable? Yes.
Faster than any stock older air cooled car? Yes, even when you include the turbos.

Is a 997 faster on the track than any early car with an equal (very good) driver behind the wheel? No way- not even close.

Understand there are modified early cars, some with full interior, etc, that will beat 997 GT3 cup cars around a track. Those cars run away and hide from a regular 997. Even a modified 997 street car can be beaten by many modified early cars in terms of raw lap times...

Of course the OP didn't mention didn't even mention the track. For a street driver along side an earlier car I'll bet the 997 would be good fun and do nicely.

Not sure what you're saying, (??), for any apples/apples comparison it would be stock vs. stock. Say a stock 993 vs. stock 997. I stand by my original statement. I'd also like to see the modified early car that will beat the 997 cup car with someone like Cort Wagner or another pro sports car champion behind the wheel of both. Waiting for that...

[petevb]

Originally Posted by speeder

Not sure what you're saying, (??), for any apples/apples comparison it would be stock vs. stock.

Stock vs stock I completely agree with you; I took issue with you saying "any air-cooled, early 911" because it's incorrect.

Originally Posted by speeder

I'd also like to see the modified early car that will beat the 997 cup car with someone like Cort Wagner or another pro sports car champion behind the wheel of both. Waiting for that...

You can stop waiting, it has already happened. Ever heard of Mat Lowrance?

There are not all that many races where the factory GT3 cups/ drivers from Europe go head to head with club racers, but 2004 Laguna Seca was one event I remember vividly.

Mat Lowrance (ex IMSA driver) won the race and then drove his car home on the street- I remember it as a '70 chassis, 3.8L twin turbo at the time. At one point over the weekend he came from the very back of the field; he hadn't turned a qualifying lap (not sure if this was intentional). The car was in the range of 700 hp and 2000 lbs in race trim, and when the flag dropped on the front straight I think he passed 5 cars before turn 2.

Bob Stefanowicz, Henry Watts ('72), etc... A 997 GT3 cup is a ~2700 lb, 400-420 hp car at the end of the day; 6.5:1 lbs per hp just doesn't get it done vs cars with half that. These modified early cars are impressive to see- get out to a track some time, they're around...

[naparsei]

The biggest problems with the newer cars is that to get to the "fun" level of driving, you are not just unlawful, but ridiculously unlawful. The limits of my 997 GT3 on the street are orders of magnitude higher than my relatively stock '71 targa.

[80-911SC]

don't do it stay true to your ironhead , buy a faster aircooled ....

JMO ...

[jwetering]

Here we go - Air cooled guys talking ***** again.

Tell you what guys...stick with air cooled. You probably couldn't handle a proper fast car anyway.

[jwetering]

oops meant to attach this photo to fan the flames a bit more...

[jwetering]

Damn - wrong pic...

[450knotOffice]

Pete, the 700 HP in the 2000 pound car is what produced the win (with a good driver). It wasn't the car's dominance as a chassis, nor the driver's. It was the engine.

At Willow Springs raceway here in SoCal - a horsepower track if there ever were one - the 700 HP POC cars have produced some incredible lap times, and I mean incredible. However, just a few months ago, a couple of former GT3 RSR's, one of which was a former Flying Lizards car if I recall correctly, ran significantly faster lap times on roughly 450 to 480 HP, vs. the 700 HP POC cars. Why? Chassis and aero advancements that even double the HP/wt ratio could not overcome.

Apples to Apples, Oranges to Oranges, the old chassis are no match for the new chassis. Not even close. Yes, an old chassis race car can run much faster lap times than a new chassis street car, but apply a similar level of mods to the street 997, and it would wipe out the old chassis (removing the driver from the equation, of course).

[Mitch Leland]

Here's the rub for me... No doubt all the above is true, they're beautiful, fast, comfortable, blah, blah, blah... but they aren't a DIY automobile! For me that's the biggest decision for both my pocket book and life style. Am I wrong?