Whats a 1973 911T worth?

I have been pondering for months whether to sell or trade my restored "T" for an SC. I know opinions in this forum vary from dedicated SC owners to the older "S, E and T" model guys, but for a daily driver I would find more dependability and longevity with an SC. I hate taking the "T" out even in a MIST! The latest issue of Excellence see's the early 911's increasing in value as the early models represent the purist of the mark and are coming into their own. Interestingly my local Porsche dealer put a value of 18k on this one. So let me provide the details and see what the forum experience can render on value....1973.5 model Sunroof coupe, bare metal, window out repaint and new glass (tinted)..Sepia Brown. 5 spd - 915, CIS, new floor pans, undercoating, NO RUST, always southern car, new interior (carpet, dash, seat re-uphol), cocoa mats, Sony CD - 3 speakers, "S" calipers, koni's, new tie rods, ball joints, front oil cooler, new gas tank, upgraded AC compressor, rebult engine with upgrades (oil fed tensioners) - 6k in receipts, rebuilt trans, swepco, factory chrome FUCHS with center caps (hand painted), brand new Dunlops, chrome "S" body trim, new airbox, pop-off, thermolvalve switch, cold start valve, hoses, ignition switch, battery (12V), accumulator, cv/half shafts. Miles on chassis - 124,500. Miles on engine since rebuild - 28,000. On body since re-done, 40,000. BEAUTIFUL, GORGEOUS, SPARKLING and here I am afraid to drive the damn thing!!
Jump in and take a shot. All SC traders with a flip side attitude welcome. Thanks

BR

Well, as always, a car is worth what you can get somebody to pay for it. But if your dealer says it's worth $18,000, then have him write you out a check. That figure sounds more in line with the value of a 73 S in great original condition than a nicely rebuilt T.

A T, especially, is a car you invest in in order to have fun with, not to realize any kind of meaningful financial return. It's not even easy to bring a bruised-up early S to a $20,000 value for much less than $20,000. And unfortunately, it costs just as much to repaint a T, or repair rust on a T, or refinish the interior of a T, or even rebuild many of the mechanical components on a T, as it does an S. The S is just rarer than a T, with better performance, brakes and suspension in its stock configuration.

I don't understand why you'd want to be any less cautious with a restored SC, though. Both are pretty common models of 911. But based on Automahn's recent thread ( http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate/Forum3/HTML/006597.html ), maybe the two of you could work out a swap. Everybody's got to find the 911 that's right for them.

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Jack Olsen
1973 911 T (3.6) sunroof coupe
jackolsen@mediaone.net

[This message has been edited by JackOlsen (edited 03-10-2001).]

Its a $10-12K car, on a good day. Sepia brown is not an easy color to sell. You shouldn't be afraid to drive it. The worse that can happen is (1) you total it and get $9-10K from your insurance company, or (2) it gets some wear and tear, paint chips, etc. over the years, and you end up having driven it 50,000 miles, having fun, and ending up with a $9,000 car. So, the car depreciated $2,000, less than the sales tax and registration on a new Honda Civic.

The early car may experience a little appreciation over the next few years, but I would not count on anything dramatic, esp. for the Ts. Until they become antiques, the $$ for the T will always be limited, in my opinion.

If you're afraid to drive your '73T, I can't see how owning a different model (and likely more expensive) Porsche is going to change anything.

Why exactly are you afraid to drive it, like in the mist? You mention that its a nice car, but you don't say why you are afraid to drive it. If it gets dirty, you can always wash it. If it gets damaged, you can always repair it, it sounds like it has no original parts or paint anyways, if its been painted once, it can be painted again with no loss of value. If you are afraid to drive a $12K nice car, its hard to see how you would be less afraid to drive ANY nice car.



[This message has been edited by Jim T (edited 03-10-2001).]

I would generally agree with Jack and Jim. Sounds like a very nice car, everything needed has been done. Without seeing it, I would say it is worth about $13,000. Color is a very important part of early 911 resale - sepia brown will probably keep it from reaching the high end of CIS Ts, about $16K. Comparable Es sell for about 4K more, a sepia S would probably top out at about 20K.

Randy W

As for Sepia Brown, who at Porsche, ever figured *anyone* would buy a car in this ugly color? Is it a German thing?


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Doug
'81 SC Coupe
Canada West Region PCA

Believe it or not brown was a "cool" color in the late 60's/early 70's. Look at the cover of the album "Rubber Soul" or Steve McQueen's jacket in the opening sequence of Le Mans. I remember test driving a sepia brown '72 911 E in 1975, and it was still attractive then. Unfortunately it has fallen out of fashion favor and shows no signs of coming back soon.

Randy W

Thanks for the response. I do not stand back in awe of this vehicle, despite the appearance, character and care it took to restore it. I have to admit that Sepia Brown was never my first choice but the color does grow on you and is far more palatable then metallic purple or lime green that represented the early seventies with many marks. I cannot forget my bright orange'72 Fiat 850! I would think the Sepia Brown catered more to the English Country gentleman for his daily country jaunt then someone showing off driving the streets of LA listening to Canned Heat! My problem is that its my daily driver and I realized too late that the SC is better suited all around in inclement weather, dependability and the longevity associated with the 3.0, not to mention parts availability. Its not that I do not love this "T", it is a kick to drive, but in the long term I feel the SC will provide more what I need as my daily car. Its easier to get SC parts, I meet fewer and fewer mechanics who ever worked on the older 2.2 or 2.4 engines and know the 3.0's well, recyclers have a greater abundance of SC parts around then the "73's and the "T" speed is dismal for todays standards. I know some will argue these points, but heh, I am still a Porsche nut and always will be and can always find my back to another 944 that provided 325,000 hassle free miles before I sold it. Soooo, if any SC owners want to consider a swap I am all ears for now. Thanks.

BR

I used to have a sepia brown 1972 T and I think I can understand your situation. I have a couple of friends who have SCs and I
have driven their cars too. I did not really enjoy the experience compared to my car. The "newer" 911s feel to me less responsive or driver tangible in my very subjective opinion.
But, by golly, those SC are more dependable, civilized and quite often much faster. Our Ts are always going to be looked down upon
so why not just drive yours without fear?
Get a 3.0 liter CIS engine inserted and many
of your dependability problems will go away.

As for the tinworm, just be diligent on fixing rust as it develops. Hell, a 5 year
Honda Accord is supposedly worth more than
our cars so keep things in perspective.

Yeah, I dumped the brown after some serious
angst because basically it was my car and
its value was primarily to me and nobody
else. Gulf Blue it became and I never looked
back. Dumped $4K paint job into $5K car and still have a $5K car and now I am dumping $6K into a S engine upgrade and still have
$5K car. Higher math never works for T
owners!

Now go drive that T and enjoy it for what it
is. As a daily driver, I can think of
much worst cars, a Honda Accord come to
mind....

Bill

[This message has been edited by zotman72 (edited 03-11-2001).]

[This message has been edited by zotman72 (edited 03-11-2001).]

This might be a little off-color since we're talking about quasi-collectable cars, but why not get one of those "Drive it like you hate it" stickers and talk yourself into driving it like a Porsche?

I love the style of the early 911, but I love driving one more than looking at one. I think the best advice I saw on this thread was the insertion of a 3.0 (although I would say 3.2) motor into your car. Sell the original motor, it's been rebuilt so you should get at least a palatable amount of money for it). Fire in the big Carrera motor and tell the original "S" guys you're back in the game. Enjoy it brother, that's a great car. Sepia? Who cares? It's not a brown Honda-it's a brown classic Porsche! Have a great day! - Dave

But why stop at a 3.2? Go the whole nine yards, and make it a T-badged, sepia-brown giant killer!



I thought the expression was: "Drive it like you stole it."

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Jack Olsen
1973 911 T (3.6) sunroof coupe
jackolsen@mediaone.net

[This message has been edited by JackOlsen (edited 03-11-2001).]

Sunroof
Remember two things:
1/ Brown = stealth. You are making time through traffic. The radar gun is color blind. Your mission is to escape the attention of the operator. Your mantra is:"I am invisible, officer. Look at bright colored cars. You do not see me.
2/ You are driving perhaps the most beautiful car (your long-hood) to ever come out of Germany. There is no color that fails to look good on that sheetmetal. But you must drive the car. Porsches are meant to be on the road, in the left lane.

Better still: "Drive it like the wife just found out how much you've spent on it."

I drive a 1970 sepia brown 911T. Reliability issues? its got 164000 on its original engine and still going strong. Sepia brown is a rare color these days when nobody can wait to repaint there "new" old 911 some more modern color like guards red or something. I think the sepia brown really fits the generation of the car. I would only have liked viper green or signal orange better. These early cars are so much fun to drive and their styling inside and out is WAY better. Stay with the T. or keep the T and buy an SC as well.

karl
1970 911T (sepia brown all the way!)

I am lucky enough to own a 73T MFI and an 83SC. They both get tucked away for the winter months. Thereafter, my SC becomes the daily driver and my T will (when restoration is finished) come out for picnics only. I would never swap my T for an SC unless I was living in a poor climate. I would just prefer to see the SC rot. In your position, I would trade the wife and kids in for a later car and keep the T in the family room next to the TV. There is a perfect Sepia brown 911L ever time I go to a swap meeting in Milton Keynes in the UK that is simply the best classic 911 that I have ever seen. On that car, the colour is absolutely perfect. Any other colour just would not look right.

I think a bunch of folks responding on this thread missed the point and took off on 'the color issue' that wasn't an issue and also seem to be suffering from 'Tunnel Vision' as far as the 'reliability issue' is concerned!

The SCs followed the 2.7 CIS cars, unargueably, the very worst stain on Porsche's reputation that has ever happened! So, suddenly, the SC became the 'gold standard' of reliability, and of mythical/Biblical proportions, according to a lot of people with no knowledge whatsoever of the 'reliability' of previous 911 models. With the exception of sparkplugs and points, which are, if fact, just regular maintenance items, not major reliability headaches like pulled/broken studs! The pre-'74 cars, in general, have fewer transaxle problems than SCs and later cars, because they are less powerful and offer less opportunity for the drivers to abuse the synchros and gear teeth with that additional power. With more power than 'T' models, SCs get abused more in the 915 'sore spot' that so many people complain about ... like A.J. Foyt and Bobby Allison did about the IROC cars!

The simple fact is, the tensioner issue is a given with any pre-'84 car, so it can't be counted against the 'T' any more than it can in the case of SCs!

And, finally, the Dilivar stud's breakage prolem are now on the horizon for any SC, like an impending storm blowing in ...

There are, among the misinformed, beliefs that there are great technological differences between later 911s of the SC and Carrera generation and earlier, pre-'74 cars ... and it has been offered/blasted/flamed that metalurgical differences exist between the valve train of earlier cars with more frequent service intervals, and the later cars, which, of course, is PURE BUNK! Let's see ... valve guides, plating on valve stems, and valve guide seal materials have changed since '65-'73, that's about it other than valve cover and gasket changes. Pretty revolutionary, huh?

Keep the 'T' ... not many mechanics can tell the difference between a 2.4 CIS engine and 3.0 CIS engine if it wasn't for the badges and bumpers, and fan shroud colors!

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Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa

I say, keep the 'T'. Warren's post omits only one concern I can think of...RUST.

So go get it rust proofed and DRIVE it. Think of it this way. You have just spent $18k on a 3 year old car - do you let it sit or drive it?

And I think Sepia Brown is very very cool. I fully dig the period colours from the early 70s.



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Cameron Baudinet
1975 911S

Rust proofed? How does one do that?

David

Thank you all for the vote of confidence. I started this thread and the response has been informative and certainly enlightening. Your correct about the Sepia Brown being very unique for the time, but I did spot a new 996 in a similar color which tells me Porsche is re-thinking. The color is not the major concern though. The dependability and rust question led the top of the list. The more folks I talk to the better I feel about the 2.4. Its as simple as it gets in that engine compartment. Their is no doubt this car has character from the worn Porsche crest on the glove box cover to the throttle lever and BIG comfy seats. I will keep it as original as I can, although I cannot help but be envious of Jack and his rocket machine! Warren, thank you for you input as always. Now I have to get back on to start another thread on those "S" calipers!

BR
'73T

BR

I agree with Cameron, the Brown looks good on the early 911's. You didn't ask for opinions on the color, but guys are slamming your color choice, left & right. Everyone has on opinion on colors. Hey, some guys like to bolt Porsche crest on their steering wheels, dashboards, door panels, floor mats, etc. Porshe figured one crest on the hood was ample Different taste makes the world go around. Drive it and enjoy it!! Good luck...

Bill Carcot
1979 911SC
Diablo Region. P.C.A.

sorry - hit the enter key twice

[This message has been edited by N11Porsche (edited 03-12-2001).]